What to do - Injectors or Torque Plate?

[Ben Rumson]

I have a '95 (160 hp) Automatic with 145k miles. My timming is set at 15. 5 (spillport timming) and my wastegate arm has been shortened to help increase boost. I have also added a larger vibration dampner. I do a fair amount of towing (21k pounds) at altitudes between 4,800 to 10,000 feet (No. Utah and Western Wyoming). I hope I haven't forgotten anything important...



I killed the TC using my "Mystery Switch" improperly - guilty! As a reslut I'm going to get an entirely new DTT Trans (from Bill K) with the 91% TC and high performance VB. Here's the catch. Bill tells me that I'll need at least 230 hp to properly run the new low stall converter. It's doubtful whether my current setup is producing the required 230 hp.



Option A:

To accomplish this needed hp, I'm currently planning on getting a set of DD Stage 3 Injectors, 191 high flow Delivery Valves, and a 4" exhaust t to t. I'm looking at around $1,200 for just these parts - not including installation.



As I contemplate this massive undertaking, I've taken a breather to reading about Torque Plates. The more I read about them, the more I begin to wonder if a simple plate might be the answer (Option B).



Can I avoid the new Injectors, Delivery Valves, and Exhaust System and just get a different torque plate??? If so, which plate #?



What are the technical Pro's and Con's of each option - excluding cost factors? Which option will provide the best drivability, produce adequate/better hp and torque gains, and provide better EGT control? Can I get amazing low end torque and great high end performance at the same time?



I place my fragile soul at your mercy.



Thanks in advance !



- Bruce Adams

Smithfield, Utah

 

[TxDieselKid]

well I'd go with a box....oh...wait......it aint that easy.....

I would go with a plate, and smaller DD2's. but I am just a want-a-be 12v'er too. I think the 181's are good enough to push the DD3's, just not the 370's. If you do get both, I would highly suggest at least a Piers HX-35.



Welcome to the boards.



Put some gauges on that thing too man.



Andrew

 

[tschwab]

Well - Decisions, decisions. I have the DTT TC & VB and love it. I also have the TST #8 moved slightly forward with a slight tweaking of the pump, good power, but once the bug bites you just want more. I am trying to decide what my next move should be... . bigger plate (TST #6)? Injectors? 215's or 370's? Bigger plate & injectors? 191 delivery valves? Bigger turbo housing?... ... and the list goes on and on and on and on.



Keep us posted on what you decide and welcome to the TDR forums!

 

[JBoesl]

I would put a fuel plate in first before I got injectors. I am very happy with the performance of the TST #5 plate in my truck. I would also strongly recomend Piers Govener Spring Kit, It will make you smile .



jason

 

[LarryB]

I'm beginning to think the Piers gov kit should be close to the #1 bomb. It does the most for the least. With the stock auto transmission it allows you to at least make power up where the torque converter can pass it to the wheels. In your case this may not be important. In the 5sp it just makes it much more drivable because of the wider powerband.



My 02

 

[Jim Fulmer]

tschwab

I'm with you on the mods, you can look at my sig to see mine except DTT is with a few weeks then what do I do, Talked to Piers some time back and he sugjested a bigger plate first so I thought I would try a #4 then go with injectors and a PDR 35 or 40 later depending on were the temps are.



Jim

 

[Sled Puller]

Injectors first, at least a used set of 215's. Should be somebody out here wanting to get rid of a set.



Just adding fuel to stock 160's will eventually lead to trouble.



A 16 housing on your turbo will get you by for a while.



Gene

 

[Ben Rumson]

It's becoming a little clearer...

Thanks for the advise and suggestions.



What I'm hearing is this:



TXDieselkid: Both a Plate and Injectors, maybe an HX-35.

JBoesel: Plate and Govenor Spring Kit.

LarryB: Gove Spring Kit ?

tschwab: (recommendation uncertain)

JFullmer: Plate first.

MGM: Injectors and 16cm housing.



Im leaning towards MGM's recommendation (although it will cost more) because intuitively I would have to agree that simply adding more fuel to my very small injectors would eventually lead to problems.



I noticed also that some of you have '98 and newer rigs - where you ALREADY have large enough injectors (and larger pumps?) to begin with. This being the case, adding a plate might be YOUR logical next choice. You may have started your journey to the peak of Mt. Everest from a base camp 2 days hike away from the summit whereas I'm still in a Sherpa village 1 weeks hike from your base camp. What about my smaller '95 pump with stock 160's? Is a plate still the answer?



I'm by NO means trying to be critical. I really appreciate your advise and welcome any corrections or criticisms. I just want to be sure that MY truck with, it's current equipment, is being taken into consideration.



I like the idea of a govenor spring kit.



Any second thoughts, criticisms, or additional suggestions would be helpful.



Thanks for taking the time to work through this with me. I value your opinions!



- Bruce Adams

Smithfield, Utah

 

[Ben Rumson]

Technical Pro's and Con's

I'm still hoping that someone will help provide some technical Pro's and Con's associated with each of these options.



I want to make an informed decision by looking at the FULL picture.



THANKS !!

- Bruce

 

[Todd G]

My truck is similar and I would get the 370 injectors that are on sale from Piers right now. Push your stock plate full forward and you will have plenty of power. Then you can build on this later with a new plate, turbo or exhaust.

 

[Sled Puller]

All depends on cash flow.



The 370's are awesome,(and cheap), but REALLY need the D-valves.

Go with those two, push your plate ahead, and change the exhaust housing. Around $800. That will get you by about 2 weeks!!LOL!

But it also gives you a good base to start with.



gene

 

[LarryB]

My opinion is that anyone wanting better performance but doesn't have the gov bumped up by installing a spring kit, only has one oar in the water. This mod does more to change this stodgy engine into a very usable powerplant than anything else. If you have added fuel then this is even more so.



Take the halter off and let her run!



My free advice! Again, worth every penny.

 

[SlyBones]

BADAMS,



No offense meant to those 5speed guys, but you need input from a auto guy with a DTT transmission. Bill is telling you, that you need a minimum level of power to properly drive his 91% TC. I am here to say there are 2 parts to this.



-- The overall power

-- Bottom end, and turbo lag



The problem with having stock power and a real tight TC is gonna be launch off the line. You will be sitting there waiting for ever for the motor to make enough power to get the thing rolling.



Note: For me this was not a problem at light throttle. The 91% moves out much nicer than the stock TC. For 90% of my daily driving the above statement is NOT a problem-- However nailing the throttle to the floor from a dead stop, requires enough power to over come the tight TC and get it to move out in reasonable fashion. -- Basically once the boost comes up you are there and better be paying attention to where the truck is pointed. So the things to work on here are turbo lag. The quicker the spool up the better this is.



Given the way the AFC housing works. The governor lever does not hit the cam plate until there is enough boost to push the diaphram forward and compress the AFC spring. So the plate is not in effect until you already have boost. And depending on what AFC spring you have, the amount of boost varies.



Exhaust housings do add more power,as well as lower EGT's but I hear tend to increase lag, not reduce it. So I would keep with the stock turbo/housing untill you really need EGT reduction and then step up to a PDR HX35 with a 14 housing. Depending on HP level of course.



What you need is pres-boost fuel, and things that make spool up faster. This is why you were sent in the direction of injectors, delivery valves and exhaust. The injectors and delivery valves get you the pre-boost fuel you want. Also the smoke. Exhaust and air intake system will also add to the spoolup, as well as lower EGT's and help with low end smoke.



Ultimately you will want a plate too. But I dont think sticking in a large plate is gonna get you what you want. Also a 160 pump is only supposed to have 131 delivery valves, not 181 so I would recommend the 191's.



My personal opinion is get the injectors, delivery valves, exhaust, and air intake system. Yes I added one. Then add a plate and governor spring kit as step 2, and add a PDR turbo and housing as step 3. -- Assuming of course you already have gauges, because this is always the first BOMB.



( Edit ) OK having sat here and thought about this, the problem with just injectors and delivery valves is you may not be getting near 230 RWHP. You really may need a plate. However I still think the plate alone is not the ideal setup for an auto with a tight TC.

 

[DR]

Badams,



First notice that I have the same truck as you. Now I'm going to assume that you are going to do gauges first. If I hadn't, I would have fried mine by now.



If you still have the stock transmission. Keep it for a while, it makes a good reference point to start with. I still have the stock one in my truck, although it has been tweaked to the max with some input from Bill K. You need to turn the pressure up, reset the shift points and adjust everthing properly. And even if the convertor fried it's not that big a deal. I only lock mine while I'm cruising on the highway. Honestly, I don't think that I would miss the lock-up if I didn't have it all.



Now, you have to do the plate first. The stock one has a lousy power curve. Even if you slide it foward, its still the wrong curve just with more power. Just the #6 plate and boost elbow gives you 230 hp for under $300. 00. And there no point in starting with injectors or delivery valves until you correct this. But, while your doing the plate do the gov. springs at the same time. You could also do the afc springs now, although your stock ones aren't that bad, just adjust the star wheel. Now even with stock transmission you won't believe the difference. Actually these mods works well with the stock transmission. Because when you stomp on it, the stock convertor allows the rpms to climb quick enough that there is really no tubo lag. Under 280 -300 hp the stock turbo works very well and the only reason to change it is EGTs.



Now after you have the plate, elbow and springs. The next step is a BHAF filter to help lower the EGTs(this could also be the first step). If EGTS are still a problem then do a PDR 14cm2 housing. Stay away from the 16cm2 housing unless you are looking for alot of HP and are willing to put up with the lag.



Depending on which plate you installed and the position of the plate. Your getting close to 300 hp and you have probably fried what was left of that stock transmission (your also wondering what Dodge was thinking when it only gave your truck 160 hp). And you are now ready to see Bill K. Once the DTT is in decide if you want more power. If you do, then upgrade the exhaust and put in the 370s and the 191s.



I haven't done the turbo housing yet. But just with the plate, springs, elbow and filter. It runs hard from a dead stop all the way the 2950 rpm shift point with no lag. Boost is 34 psi, good smoke and the EGTs go to 1400. And that's with the stock transmission and less than $600. 00 spent. Although, I'm looking foward to the day that it dies and I can move up to the DTT and more bombing.



Whatever you decide, good luck and bombs away.

 

[Steve Roseman]

Badams,

I've got the 160 auto like you, just two wheel drive. I have the TST #6 and love it. The only problem is I run out of rpm too quick. Kind of like being on a date with a tease, just when things get exciting, it's over. So I would definitely go with the gov spring kit, that's one of my next mods.

I wouldn't mess with injectors or delivery valves right now. Once you have that DTT transmission, you're going to want more power, then more power, and more power:-laf

I join the guys who say fuel plate and gov spring kit first(and gauges)

 

[Cooker]

I agree with SlyBones comments 100%.



As mentioned, the stock fuel plate may not be an optimal fuel curve, but the plate is not involved during low boost levels, and this is where you need the help with a tight TC.



-Ryan

 

[tschwab]

Re: It's becoming a little clearer...

Originally posted by badams

Thanks for the advise and suggestions.



What I'm hearing is this:



TXDieselkid: Both a Plate and Injectors, maybe an HX-35.

JBoesel: Plate and Govenor Spring Kit.

LarryB: Gove Spring Kit ?

tschwab: (recommendation uncertain)

JFullmer: Plate first.

MGM: Injectors and 16cm housing.

Well let me clarify a bit. First, I want you to know there are many options AND opinions and the budget also plays a role. I went with:

1. Gauges

2. Cam Plate

3. DTT VB & TC

4. Injectors (Coming soon)



Bill K. can then adjust your VB to the proper level for the power you have/will be adding in the future. In my case, I told him that I will be adding injectors (215's), so my VB was set up for this.

 

[tschwab]

Originally posted by badams

I do a fair amount of towing (21k pounds) at altitudes between 4,800 to 10,000 feet

It sounds to me like you need a medium duty rig, not a light duty pick-up. 16k is the max on my '98, it may be even less for your model year. Going 5k over max is a risk I would not want to take... . how do plan to stop safely when your brakes, axles, steering and many other components are not rated to tow that much weight safely? I'll agree that the Cummins motor is up to it... ... but not the rest of the truck.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

I strongly suggest that you skip the 215s and go strait to some 370s or DD3s. I actually lost one mpg going from the 180 to the 215s. 370s or DD3s and some delivery valves are next, after I recover from giving all my money to KwikKurt.

 

[Ben Rumson]

And the Verdict is...

This is all too much. I'm going back to my Power Stroke.



... just kiddin'. Hold those tomatoes, boys!



Yes, when I tow, I tow heavy. Mostly high Wyoming plateaus with an occasional 10,000 foot high mountain in the way. TSchwab is correct about the weight rating for my truck and the associated wear and tear and safety issues that come with it and I'm fully aware of this.



I tow RR Ties with an 18 foot car hauler (tandem axle with brakes) using a 2 5/16 ball on solid cold rolled steel equalizer hitch for load distribution and stabilization. It travels extremely well.



I'm a very careful driver and don't beat my rig either. It's handled these loads wonderfully well - short on power at high altitudes, but I drop it down as needed and keep a reasonable foot on the pedal. Break pads go every 10k-15k miles (poor design and too small), I've replace both brake callipers at 120k (sticking), one Rotor which I ruined myself. We were building a house in the middle of winter - which I did much of myself IE Brick, Maple Flooring, Tile, Cupboards, Hot Water Radiant Heat System, Finish Shelving, Water Distiller, and Paint. All of which was done after my 8-5 job at the office. As a result, I let the pads go too long and scraped the crap out of the Rotor - beyond truing limits. I just replaced both rear outer oil seals ($6 bucks and 20 minutes a piece). Also, I replaced a lower front ball joint 45k miles ago when I had 100k on it. That's my ENTIRE repait list. Not bad by ANY standard. I even have one original battery. The one that died made it to about 125k. Oh yeah, 2 windshields from Road Nuggets getting flipped up near construction zones out side of Kemmerer, Wyo - back to back trips even.



Here's what I'm going to do. Because my PRIMARY need is for low end performance for towing and running my tight TC, I'm gong to proceed as follows:



Within the next month:

1. Install an EGT (I'm on to ya by now - Thanks!)

2. Install DD 3's, 191 Delivery Valves, and a 4" exhaust.

3. Install DTT 91% TC Transmision including high perf VB - set to my driving preferences and matched to my new specs (#2 above).



Within the next 6 months or as $$ permits:

4. Get a #6 or #5 Plate and Gov. Spring Kit to address upper end performance and a provide a better curve accross the entire rpm range. This part actually sounds like the funnest.



You've convinced me that sooner or later I've got to go with both options. They both make so much sense.



I appreciate everyone's input and advise. You've spent alot of time to help me and have brought up some great ideas and made some very convencing and valid arguments. Thanks for your enthusiasm and testosterone boost too.



Ain't this great!!! Not once did anyone mention "take out the garbage" , "guess what I found on sale at the craft store", or "Honey, do I look like I'm gaining weight to you?" Between us girls... DON'T EVER answer that question! No matter how good you think your answer might be.



Thanks Everyone. I'll keep ya posted on how the upgrades unfold.



- Bruce Adams

Smithfield, Utah