When Detroit Three fail...then what?

[Ncostello]

We could talk about reasons for the failure of the Detroit Three until next week. But I'd rather not go there. The list is long and the causes are endless. Its real, its happening and its going to affect many. A bailout might save them. Or it could just delay the process a year or so. Its a bad situation and a sad one to me personally. I'm a vehicle buff. And I like my American brands.



I'd like to discuss what does everyone do then for vehicles. I'm not talking about cars and minivans. Everyone knows we could all just buy a Honda or a Toyota car. When you hear politicians talk about the demise of Detroit... its as if they just make cars and if they can't compete we'll just get our cars elsewhere.



But what about 1-ton duallys that farmers need to pull their horse trailers? Or what about 3/4 ton vans that electrical contractors use to haul their tools to the jobsite? What of them? Are they supposed to just buy a Honda Accord and expect to be able to do their jobs?



I know Diamler makes the Sprinter vans. But they are tall and won't fit in a parking garage downtown. And Isuzu makes cabovers that might perform like a dually but their power is pretty meager at best.



What do people who actually depend on Detroit do in the future? Do you think Toyota will make a 1-ton Tundra with dual rear wheels and a 300HP Diesel? Many of us could survive with a 1/2 ton. But many more simply need these types of trucks and vans to pay their bills.

 

[SHobbs]

It's all fear mongering. They could very easily go into chapter 11 and reorganize. Pilgrims Pride is doing just that and they are still operational. I can't stand all the bs about if they go under it will throw the economy into a depression. The best thing that could have been done was to let those that were failing to fail, let the market correct itself. Now we have created a long line of beggers looking for a handout and they are all CEO's. Look at Bank America, they got a huge bail out and now will lay off around 35k workers. The average citizen will not get any help what so ever.

 

[Ncostello]

I for one felt that the Washington doing the first $800B bailout package was totally wrong for everyone. If anyone should fail... it should have been the banks (including the mostly foreign investors). Nothing ever get totally better until it hits rock bottom. Possibly true with GM etc. Banks have shoved all that money into vaults and slammed the doors shut while giving the lock wheel a big spin. Their books now look good and thats they way they are keeping it. Real Estate investors have made offer upon offers on foreclosed houses for reasonable, yet decent deals for them. Banks do not have the manpower to sift through all the offers and they sit on desks. So finally they go to auction and sell for much less than what was being offered. Its happening while they sit and count the bailout cash bags.



But... I was just wondering. "What If" scenario. Just looking for theories on who would buy what, who would make what, who would fill in the gaps left if this happened.



It could very well be fear mongering. But in todays economic and political wonderland, I'd absolutely say it is totally possible they could dissolve. I wouldn't be suprised if it did happen.

 

[TboneMan]

I'll likely keep my '01 until the body falls off.



By then I'll have an micro car of some sort to commute. If I still have an interest in towing a camper, I would step over the pickup world and go right for a small commercial chassis.



A lot can change between now and then. I try to stay optimistic, but the gov. has stepped over the line too many times. With the EPA wanting to tax cow toots, NY Gov wanting to tax regular soda (pop), bail-out this, bail-out that, I afraid where this might all end.

 

[Ncostello]

I guess my thoughts were that nowhere else on earth do you see vehicles like our fullsize pickups. If you do... they are usually ours anyhow. I guess we could adapt. As I doubt any new startup companies will begin building US cars. Once its gone it will be difficult to start back up. Countries that lose manufacturing tend to become non-contenders in the scheme of things. China is building theirs. We're shutting ours down and bailing it out.

 

[TboneMan]

I guess my thoughts were that nowhere else on earth do you see vehicles like our fullsize pickups. If you do... they are usually ours anyhow. I guess we could adapt. As I doubt any new startup companies will begin building US cars. Once its gone it will be difficult to start back up. Countries that lose manufacturing tend to become non-contenders in the scheme of things. China is building theirs. We're shutting ours down and bailing it out.

I agree! In Europe, people camp and have travel trailers, but they are very small and they tow them with vans and larger cars. Most delivery trucks are small Isuzu types. I must say however, big rigs are still big rigs. Mind you they don't have the triple sleepers we have here. Mostly large "cab-over" designs. But they sure can tow.

 

[cksh8me]

Maybe we'll get to buy a Jap truck with a great diesel engine made in America. Not an electrical night mare good motor truck made in Mexico.

 

[Jim Smith]

they won't fail IF

they won't fail if the credit dollars start flowing.

they won't fail if the newsfolks stop giving a false/unbalanced story

they won't fail if we start supporting the manufacturing section

they won't fail till we stop sending PROFITS out of the country

they won't fail if WE think of them as Americans first

they won't fail if politicians think of the USA first -they failed before

they won't fail if we BUY DETROIT FIRST



they are hardworking

they are innovative

they do produce good products

they have produced what Americans wanted

they will continue to pay taxes

 

[Bessler]

They wont fail if the CEO's where forced to be held responsible for the companies, they are being payed from (to much if your ask me). That is why this country is going the direction it is cause no one wants to take responsibility any more. Just waiting for someone else to take care of them, namely the tax payers.

 

[Jim Smith]

High CEO compensation

I think that in many cases CEO's are overpaid but thats what happens in this country. Also , Congress ,sports figures , actors etc and other industries could be overpaid as well. However, we all probably strive to get the most that we can from our employer. I have met some folks not associated with the auto industry and their wages make Detoit workers, salaried and union look like paupers.

 

[cksh8me]

I don't understand how anybody can take a pro american stand re: the big 3 auto makers.



When the times are tough the big 3 are pro American. When times are good the big 3 are off loading jobs to other countries.



When times are good they have their hands in your pocket for every last dime when you purchase a vehicle. Now times are tough and they have their hands in your pockets to bail themselves out.



The big 3 want more of your money for their product but give us different sheet metal with many of the same problems and some new ones thrown in for good measure.



Don't believe me? DW became a problem on the second gens in 93? Now it's 09 16 years later and we still are fighting DW. But we get to pay 20k more the the honor to fix the problem.

 

[Jim Smith]

Every business wants to maximize their profits ie having their hands in your pocket. I don't see many around that will give to you for less than what it cost to produce. (Economics 101). I believe that the changes made are to improve the product and /or make it more appealing to the purchaser. I don't know what DW is please enlighten me. Thanks

 

[Ncostello]

I've always owned US vehicles. Dodge, Ford, Chevrolet, GMC. And nothing else. I've no desire to even test drive a Toyota or Nissan truck. I sat in a new Tundra once at a home improvement show. The interior is still foreign car CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP!!! Toyota has never figured out that car seats can be something other than cardboard thin and flat over the entire surface. And I've seen many Toyota truck frames rusted in half. I've not seen a domestic truck rusted in half. Maybe they will... but I've not seen it. Perhaps rusted in a farm field awaiting restoration.



Looks like the bailout sort of happened. Ford didn't ask for anything. The others wanted more than they got. I hope they don't fail then say they didn't actually get what they wanted which is why they re-failed.



I sure hope they can figure it out and become better.

 

[rkressg]

I hate to say it, but let it fail, maybe Detroit can join Pittsburgh in a 30yr+ recession which we have never recovered. There was no bail-out then for the steel industry, and there should be no bail out for the auto industry now.



There is no single reason for the demise of the American Auto Industry. There are many factors, ranging from poor management decisions, labor costs, material costs, poor quality products, and many others.



A bailout for the industry will only prolong the inevitable collapse of the industry unless radical changes happen from within these corporations and with the UAW. As phrases go in large companies, "it is a big boat, it turns slow", so I doubt that any real changes will occur within the few months that can float the industry with a $25b loan.



Toyota has managed to keep their heads above water longer because they have a much larger world margin, and have successfully kept the glut of the UAW out of their American factories. They have taken a large hit in the global market, they just have a better margin due to lower internal operating costs and significantly better operating procedures (which are based on American principal, just ignored by the "Big 3").



If there is a market, and the "Big 3" did really fail, another company would step in and fill the market. It is not like we are not going to be able to get a car/truck after a market failure. Toyota and Isuzu make large trucks (significantly larger than 1t), they are just not sold in the US.



Just my $0. 02

 

[cksh8me]

DW or Death Wobble you can do a search and find plenty of threads on it. Basicly it's when you're driving down the road hit a bump and the truck starts dancing because the front tires are shaking so violently you loose control. I got it in my 2nd Gen and I'm spending the money on my 3rd gen to hopefuly not get it.



Jim I agree about the economics 101 and I understand that. What I'm trying to say is when times are good we pay and time are tough they want us to pay again. Yes improvements are made but maybe not in our trucks.



2nd gen 12 valve more comfortable seats, less electrical problems, I didn't hear too much about lift pump problems on those either. Just a few of the steps backwards on the newer models.