Which Injectors?

[Old Smoky]

What do you guys think? Power Wagons, or PODs? Why one or the other? What are the advantages and disadvantages? Does one smoke more than the other? Anything else?



Mike

 

[nascar mark]

Pod's for the power!!!!!!

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

I THINK the PW injectors are similar to the 185 HP injectors, and add about 28HP over stock.

The POD's are much richer and tend to smoke more for sure, but they are also roughly twice the HP injector adding about 58 HP.

Check to make sure that the POD's are applicable to your 92.



Bob.

 

[Power Wagon]

I wonder at the 28 HP figure. I don't see it, myself. I have, I would guesstimate, at 217HP, about 70-80 more HP than a bone-stock 93 auto. if only 30 of it were attributable to the injectors, 10% due to engine rpm, then it would mean my pump's cranked up a lot. But it's not.



Honestly, though, I can't give you really good info until my pump comes off, goes on the test stand and gets the settings checked.



My guess? They are good for 20% improvement on whatever you have, when replacing 92-93 stock injectors.

 

[Old Smoky]

I have heard that POD's use large sac nozzles. Is this true? What about the PW's? I don't prefer this style because it is more inefficient, and smokes more. The reason would like to upgrade is to reduce the stress on my pump. Do most leave their power screw turned in after upgrading injectors? Does this reduce much stress? Is there a major smoke issue? Thanks.



Mike

 

[Power Wagon]

Hey, Mike... We're not that far away from each other.



Let's just make a point to get together and you can check out my setup and see what you think of it.



Maybe we could have a 1st gen conflab somewhere, get HDM48 and me and a couple others to get together, compare notes and pieces?

 

[paccool]

Mark, I have a question about the HP values that you may be able to answer. Wasn't the 160 HP rating of our engines the engine output? Isn't the 217 HP rating you got off the Dyno(good one by the way! ) the rear wheel rating? If so, there is a lot more than 57 additional HP that you have. Have heard numbers in the 20-25% range for loss thru the drive train with autos. At 20% loss, that would give you about 260 engine HP.



Any comments about this?

 

[Power Wagon]

You're right in line with my thinking.



Here's how I see it:



160HP at the flywheel, rated output.



stock truck, driveline losses bring the output down to 135-140 HP at the rear wheels. I have read 2-3 dyno checks, and that seems typical.



So, I have 217 at the wheels, and with the auto and rest of the drivetrain losing about 20% of my HP, I figure there's about 270 HP at the flywheel.



That's 100 or so HP gain. I've got about 10% of it due to rpm alone, no more than 20% upgrade in fuel - that's 32 HP. So, I've got 16 and 32 HP from things I can quantatively define. . or about 1/2 of the difference.



The rest has to be injectors, timing, shades of the moon, buzzing my lips just right during the dyno run, and so on.

 

[roadhawg]

Hey guys,



I watch these posts on injectors and I just have to smile!



Before we had the choice of PODs I wanted more power so I bought A set of the diomond B 370s , changed the top of the injector to fit our fuel lines.

I pulled the 185s that that I had in at that time, and installed my new 370s. I thought I was opening A big can of WOOP _ _ S!

The truck was very sluggish like it had retarded timing.

I pulled the 370s back out and put the 185s back in.

Had to lower the opening pressure on the 370s from 260BAR down to 245BAR.

Pulled the 185s again, and put the 370s back in we are all lucky to have these products available without having to do the R&D ourselves! Oo.

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

As I understand it, in stock configuration, the POD's are a richer injector than the 370's.

So I was told by Piers anyway. FWIW.



Bob.

 

[roadhawg]

The 185s gave the best mileage, even better than stock!

Across the counter at Oregon fuel injection I compaired 185s and PWs, they had the same part #!

Piers told me the same thing about the PODs vs 370s as far as witch one would make the most power.

I would like to see an injector developed for our trucks by someone like DD who makes over 600hp in the P7100.

Wouldn't it be slick to have A first gen at over 550hp!

Eric Oo. Oo. Oo.

 

[Power Wagon]

Oregon Fuel? Oh, you tear my heart out



The reason you don't see a lot of work done is return on investment. Why someone would pay his help for days or weeks of work to develop a 300, 350 or whatever HP setup for a 1st gen, and then only get to sell it to the 1 or 2 people who're die-hard and have the big bucks is obvious.



But, regardless of what you do, there are physical limitations to the pump's output. It cannot generate the pressure the P7100 can, it can't match the output of the large barrells and plungers the P7100 can either.



That doesn't mean there's not performance available, though. Just what the limitations are vary by who you ask.



I suppose I could go and offer to develop a "system" for my former employer. But if he puts money into it by supplying parts or services, he's going to want to sell parts to get his money back, not have me publish the part #'s and techniques to achieve it. You see my position, then? If I do it with my own money and resources, then I can do whatever I want. People have done that.



I currently know of these things that could help that are experimental or in development stuff:



header - increase airflow.



Turbo mods - actually modifying the turbo housings themselves for vastly improved airflow - especially the 12CM wastegated.



Pump work - More RPM - should be able to achieve 3200 to perhaps 3500 with tweaking.



I happen to know that a knowledgeable pump tech can change your pump output from a near flat line with RPM to haveing a large torque rise. But few are doing it, it seems.



head porting



Manifold work (so you don't buy a header, just improve the manifold)



Special torque converter - non-lockup and super efficent. Not meaning super low stall, but doesn't lose much HP.



Camshaft (hey, airflow is good, period!)



Intake Manifold - higher, more equal flow.



But, because it's someone doing it out of his pocket, work's slow, building one-off's, making it for other applications, etc we don't hear about them. Maybe we should just all get together, use a few willing vendors for some items (fuel pump mods HAVE to be done in a pump shop, no way around that, for instance) and have our own concepts developed?

 

[roadhawg]

My pump is allready tweeked and I get 3300RPM out of it.



I talked with Piers A while back about moddifying the VE to spin 4000RPM, He told me they had done some testing with the springs with limited success. I couldn't get A set from him but I tryed pretty hard. I agree with everything you said about increasing airflow. Where did you see an intake manifold for sale?

To me 10000LBS of fuel pressure is alot to work with! I suppose any injector developed for our pump would give the P7100 engines 45% more than we could get out of it!

Eric

 

[Nordby]

PW injectors are smooth, don't smoke as much, and cost less than POD's. (about half from my experience). If I was gonna tow big loads often, I would likely stay with PW's for smoke and EGT.



For flat out git, POD's are awesome, and work great for me because I haul a trailer and hay once in a while and empty to the nerd job the rest of the time. They cost more, smoke more, and are not as smooth I don't find.



jon

 

[Power Wagon]

Originally posted by roadhawg

My pump is allready tweeked and I get 3300RPM out of it.



I talked with Piers A while back about moddifying the VE to spin 4000RPM, He told me they had done some testing with the springs with limited success. I couldn't get A set from him but I tryed pretty hard. I agree with everything you said about increasing airflow. Where did you see an intake manifold for sale?

To me 10000LBS of fuel pressure is alot to work with! I suppose any injector developed for our pump would give the P7100 engines 45% more than we could get out of it!

Eric

There's no manifold for sale, that I know of. I just know someone interested in designing a "log type" of enhancement to improve the airflow to all cylinders



I know what goes on inside that pump. I wouldn't even bother trying for 4K unless you intend to buy the pump quite often.



The pump can make about 16 - 18,000 psi... which is a lot below what the P7100 can do. The problem with doing it, is that the cam plate gives up if you do it constantly. Any flaw, no matter how minute, in that cam plate, and it will flake on you.



The plunger strokes 6 times for each pump revolution. At 4000 engine rpm, that's 12,0000 strokes per minute. I doubt the springs can return the pumping plunger that fast. If they do, i'm pretty sure they'll give up quick.



but don't forget... Our first gen trucks are lighter. Mine is 5700 with me and a fuel tank of fuel. Makes up for a lotta horsepower

 

[Bob Beauchaine]

PW

I would love to get together with a group of 1 geners to explore performance enhancments. Now that my pump is off warranty I would also like to bump up the governor to where you've got yours. Let me know what you guys plan - I'll be there.

Happy trails

Bob

 

[Power Wagon]

Bob, go to www.nwbombers.com and read the "the next event" thread in the "events" forum.



We'll be announcing time and place for certain when it becomes certain.