WHY!?!? (1st gen baby-rant)

[Forrest Nearing]

after selling my old '92 2wd auto (mistake), I'm in the market for another CTD.



I've gotta have a 5sp this time around...



I'm looking for a 96-98 12v, but man, I've been seeing some nice 1st gen truck lately... WHY couldn't they have put the NV4500 in the 1st gens?



I love the look of the old square trucks, and with a set of injectors and some pump tweaks, they can perform quite nicely, but I just can't subject myself to the inevitable NV4500 swap...



I will say that the 215 P pump is a sweetie though!



back to saving my pennies for something that's still out of my price range.



Forrest

 

[Paychk]

Was the 4500 even in production at that time? And there is always a rumor that some of the last 93's came with them.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

I don't believe it was out at that time... certainly not in 89... to my knowledge, no first gens were avail with the NV4500, only the Gutrag...



it's a shame because I dig the 1st gens... lotsa room under that hood! (not so much interior room though)



Forrest

 

[DieselBuzz]

I did meet a guy this summer who had done the conversion when his gutbag . . err gettrashed . . err getrag quit. If your lucky you'll find one that has it done. My 93 has the German transmission and I have yet to see a original NV4500 in a 93. Finding an original could be like looking for hens teeth, IMO.

Good Luck in your hunt and let us know how you make out.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

yeah, if I could find a 1st gen that already had an NV4500 in it for a good price, I'd gladly jump on it!



I actually found an extended cab 92 W250 with an NV5600 in it, but the truck was out of my price range... and I'm sure by the time I've got enough money, it'll be long gone.



oh well, I'll keep livin' on dreams of diesel smoke till I can afford to get into another CTD!

 

[Tim1]

nv4500swap

Run forrest run! Couldn't help myself, forrest. What is the big scare of the nv4500 swap? Many have done it with great results and I've been noticing the price of the nv4500 has been coming way down. If you find a first gen you want and can afford, go for it! The p-pump is a nice power booster, however if you not looking for 600 HP, the ve pump will serve your needs. Or, you can put a p-pump on the first gen like I plan on doing. Good Luck. Tim

 

[Greenleaf]

Run forrest run!

Stop! Your killing me here.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

Re: nv4500swap

Originally posted by Tim1

Run forrest run! Couldn't help myself, forrest. What is the big scare of the nv4500 swap? Many have done it with great results and I've been noticing the price of the nv4500 has been coming way down. If you find a first gen you want and can afford, go for it! The p-pump is a nice power booster, however if you not looking for 600 HP, the ve pump will serve your needs. Or, you can put a p-pump on the first gen like I plan on doing. Good Luck. Tim

Tim,



plain and simple... time and money... I build hot rods, and it feels like I'm always running around trying to get good deals on parts... and never mind the time/labor spent on them.



obviously when I get another CTD, I'll be modding it but I don't want to PLAN on having to do a transmission swap... and if I were to do a swap, I would just buy a complete kit w/ new parts ($$$$$)



I'd NEVER put a P pump on... the money it would cost to do that and the NV4500 could buy some of the 2nd gen trucks I've been seeing! LOL!



unless I find a 1st gen that already has the conversion, I won't be buying a 1st gen (unless it's an INSANELY good deal that allows me to afford the swap and still be under budget)



Forrest

 

[dpuckett]

Hate to disagree, but I've had good luck with the Getrags. But I've never had one for VERY long. Mine has about 175K on it now- 265 on the truck, and as long as you follow these two cardinal rules, you should be ok. Remember the 4500 5th gear nut problem? Normally pukes up a hill loaded.



RULE1- DO NOT LUG IT UNDER LOAD!!!!!! This is not only hard on the transmission, the clutch hates it as well. I occasionally get lazy going around corners and will idle around in 4th at 25, but I take my time getting up to 35.



RULE2- Keep the oil level up on it. You'd be surprised how fast 5w30 can disappear esp if it is dino oil. Or better yet, overfill it, and keep it that way. I'm still contemplating what I want to do to siplify the change and checking. I'm thinking right now taking the Driver's side PTO cover off, drilling a hole, and welding a threaded bushing and putting a plug into that. Make it high enough I am higher than the stock fill hole so I can just turn the bottle up and poor it in, keeping my floor free of oil and the air free of blue clouds.



Daniel

 

[OnlyCummins]

About the availability of the NV4500 in 1st gens: My '92 FSM has a section on the NV4500, as well as the Getrag G360 "... used exclusively with the Cummins turbo diesel engine. " Why not the NV4500? Someone in their infinite wisdom decided that the Getrag would be the better trans? What were they thinking!?

 

[bmoeller]

The NV 4500s were around in '92. Drove (didn't own) a Chevy 3500 srw w/6. 5L in it. This one had a granny low gear and O/D. Exellent gear ratios in it. Was a little hard to get into 3rd gear sometimes. Other than that, it was a great combo. Yeah I know, bowtie.

 

[cerberusiam]

According to a regional Dodge service rep the NV4500 and A618 were both scheduled for production release in the middle on the 1993 model year. Due to production problems, inventory, contracts, and the inevitable $$$ game the newer parts were not released until the new model year. How much truth there is in that statement is unknown, but, the service reps were generally about as disgusted with the lame engineering problems and corporate decisions as the consumers.



Inerestingly enough, Dodge originally wanted to release the Cummins engine in the 1985 model year. Dodge engineers wanted to drop it into a cheap 1/2 ton and get it into production as fast as possible. Cummins flat refused to supply the engines until Dodge came up with a design for a frame and suspension that Cummins would endorse. Hence the 5 year wait for the new frames built south of the border.



Oh the joys of big business finance and decision making.

 

[Paychk]

Originally posted by cerberusiam

Inerestingly enough, Dodge originally wanted to release the Cummins engine in the 1985 model year. Dodge engineers wanted to drop it into a cheap 1/2 ton and get it into production as fast as possible. Cummins flat refused to supply the engines until Dodge came up with a design for a frame and suspension that Cummins would endorse. Hence the 5 year wait for the new frames built south of the border.



Oh the joys of big business finance and decision making.

I was under the impression the Cummins/Dodge time line was more like this:



Fall 1981 Cummins approaches Dodge about "B" engine in a vehicle, pitch continues for 4 years.

April 1985 Chrysler agrees to offer "B" in pickups.

May 1985 A separate contract signed between Cummins/Chrysler for 1. 2 million (Cummins to engineer the "B" into Ram pickup)

Dec 1985 Final drawings released into the Chrysler system.

Aug 1987-Summer 1988 Cummins assembles the "B" to 8 standard specifications, using Chrysler transmissions.

Aug 3, 1988 First Cummins engine delivered to Chrysler.



So you see Chrysler didn't even agree to use the Cummins till May 1985, how could they want to release it to the public as an 85 model?

 

[cwienenga]

nv5600

forrest

I would be really interested in details on that 1st gen you found with the six speed as far as how it was put together and what parts were used that you could see from the outside. is there a spacer between the trans and engine? crossmember width and location etc.

I also love the early trucks and when my auto goes if I have the money I may try the conversion if I can find parts at the right price.



thanks

cliff

 

[cerberusiam]

Paychk, I guess it depends what side of the table you were on during the negotiations, LOL.



Who approached who about a partnership is a good question as Dodge had a previous relationship with Cummins and Cummins was looking to expand their market.



We were told as early as 1983 Chrysler and Cummins had agreed in principal to the partnership with a possible release as early as 1985. The problems arose when it came time to agree to the details. Chrysler was suffering financially and wanted to minimize the investment hence the 'let's do it cheap" idea. Cummins did not want any bad press from a partnership and they already knew the Dodge frames would not handle it.



At that time there were several places offering to transplant the B engine into the existing trucks. Part of the conversion was plating the frames to hold the power.



The time lines sound about right given the differences on both sides and the financial situation at the time.



As I said before, how much truth there was to what I was hearing is a guess. The individual was just one person in a group that was working on the technical aspects of the partnership. He didn't get to make the decisions, he just told the bean counters what they should do to make it work.

 

[Paychk]

I understand Cummins wanting to protect their name and rep. My source of info was a book and so it relies on the sources that were made available to the authors by Cummins and maybe Chrysler.



Thanks!

 

[cerberusiam]

I do not doubt for a minute the official line published by Cummins and/or Chrysler differs from the actual events, or, the perceptions of one person reflect the whole story. The individual I am referring to was fairly high up in the food chain with Chrysler and had been with them a long time. He was one of the head field service reps and spent most of his time working between the dealers, corporate, and engineering to resolve warranty problems, design problems, etc. He was extremely hyped on the partnership with Cummins because of the potential boost to Chrysler sales and what it would bring to the consumers. At the same time he was totally disgusted with the engineering section ignoring all the input and the corporate offices sqeezing every dime they could out of everyone down the line. I will always remember him saying "when they let the bean counters out of the back room they doomed the consumer". He may have been a little overboard on the bean counters but in ten years of dealing with him personnally and professionally he was always straight and fair.



Happy Holidays!

 

[PPeters]

You know, that's why I love this place, where else can you get scoops like this



Pat

 

[Forrest Nearing]

FINALLY!!!! WOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!



I FINALLY got a 5sp 2nd gen!!!! been talking with the guy since Friday... went and picked it up tonight... OMFG this thing is a TOTALLY different truck than my old 1st gen automatic (91. 5, straight 3" exhaust, mild pump tweaks)



I took my mom for a ride in it, and she was fine till I said, "you wanna have some fun? roll down that window" and I rowed it through 2-3-4 for her... she was crackin' up... the truck moves great, and the stacks sound SICK!



the truck is a '97 3/4 ton single cab 2wd. 370 injectors, #2 plate, 4k GSK, CON FE, BHAF, 4" exhaust into dual 5" stacks. it's also got the updated timing case (KDP fix) and 5th gear nut fix. all it needs is another turbo (as in twins)



xmas came early this year! Oo. Oo. Oo.



Forrest