why not NUKES?

[Don M]

Why dont we use NUKES on the mountains of Afghanistan?

Bin Laden is said to hide in caves and mud huts under ground.

The newer, modern day weapons we have are very clean, leave little to clean up afterwards. The newer nukes are hot burning too and could get into the little caves he will surely hide in.

Please pull a topo map of Afghanistan and see how difficult the terrain is.

Arguments for nukes include:



1)they sure made the Japs lay down arms.

2)clean weapons today expend the energy in the blast. Upwards of one million degrees. that will make any cave a tomb.

3)they are gonna use them on us one day in the not too distant future, lets nip it in the bud before that happens.

4)russia has asked us twice now if we would like to use their air bases and they are next door. Pakistan has denied us the airfields in their country as staging areas. with nukes we fly over and game over.

5)expanding on fly over... cruise missles with nukes can target areas without even needing to fly a plane over the airspace.

6)fast, no more waiting to quench the blood lust many of us have

7)R&D for future weapon enhancements. we could use the soldiers against freedom as guinea pigs.

8)other would be soldiers will see the destruction and seriously reconsider their positions in the world.

9)extremely low casualties on our side.

10)show resolve against soldiers who opose us.



well?



Don~

 

[roadranger]

Won't work...

Although I like the idea, for all of the reasons you point out, I don't think it's politically feasible.

We nuke Afghanistan, the fallout covers Pakistan next door- THEY get pissed off and lob a few of their nukes our way. Some may or may not hit, but we have to retaliate against Pakistan, and it just escalates into a big nuclear free for all, with who knows how many more countries getting involved. Pretty soon the whole globe is uninhabitable.



Better to use conventional weapons and bomb a few key cities in Afganistan to rubble (most are already) until they give up the rat Bin Laden.

Make the cost of hiding him too high to take.

 

[Diesel Freak]

A little lesson on radioactive contamination

Just a warning, this will be a long post.



We can not use nukes! The main reason we can not is because we will loose allied support.



Nukes are NOT clean! U235, and Pu238 are the most common fissionable material used in nuclear weapons. Hydrogen bombs have a fissionable material for a trigger. Yes the fireball is very hot, and the initial gamma radiation dissipates after the blast. The problem is the leftover fission fragments and activated particles. An atom will not become radioactive when contacted by a gamma flux! Gamma radiation is nothing but energy (extremely high frequency EM waves) All gamma radiation will do is cook you.



The problem is the radioactive particles! Beta (e-), Alpha (He+2), neutrons, and protons.



Beta particles are stopped by your dead skin layer.

Alpha particles are stopped by clothing, but can be inhaled and cause cellular damage to the soft tissues in the lungs.



High energy ionizing gamma radiation can pass through you and not hit a thing... or... interact with the molecuels in your body. Take water for an example. A high energy gamma can break the chemical bond of a water molecuel and the result are two free radicals... OH- and H+ and acid and a base. These two free radicals then chemicaly react with other molecules in the cell like the protiens in the DNA and cause mutation a. k. a. cancer.



Protons due to their positive charge and mass can make trouble, but are usually stopped by the skin.



Neutrons are BAD JUJU!

they have no charge , and have mass. they bounce around (thermalization) untill they get absorbed by another atom and then that atom becomes unstable (radioactive and decays)



When a nuclear weapon detonates the resulting neutron flux activates (the neutrons thermalize and are absorbed into the surroundings) nearby atoms. These atoms are then cast into the air and become fallout. Rb and Cs are the most common fission products and depending on the isotope that is produced they are highly radioactive. The fission product decay daughters also contrubute to radioactive contamination.



Any questions?



-Cliff

 

[illflem]

The main problem I see with nuking them is that we will never know if got right people. I don't see us going though the rubble in a nuked area looking for Bin Laden's DNA.

 

[Don M]

Cliff,



all the reasons you stated above sound like good medicine for the sickness.





The fallout is localized and will not harm us here.



Roadranger,

Pakistan does not have nukes!



illflem,

they are all Muslims, eventually because they are a differing religion, they will be our enemies. They are the right people.





Thought of another plus:

we could all get bumper stickers or door signs that say "Closed today, Gone Fission"



Don~

 

[Riflesmith]

Nukes should be used.

There seems to be alot of mis-information regarding this subject.



1. Pakistan DOES have some nuclear weapons.



2. Pakistan does NOT have the desire nor the means to deliver such weapons against the U. S. Does anyone seriously believe the Pakistanis would attack a country with 20,000 nuclear warheads in its arsenal even if it could?



3. All nuclear weapons create radioactive fallout. Some more than others, but they all have some. The amount of fallout is largely determined by the type of burst. Air bursts above 1000 feet create little fallout. Surface or sub-surface bursts create alot due to neutron activation of soil and debris.



4. Our enemies will not be impressed by a conventional cruise missile attack. This has become old news and is not very persuasive. A nuclear response to the recent terror attack would send a loud and clear message... Attack America, and you will pay a very serious price.

 

[LBTRS]

Pakistan does have nukes

Don M,



Pakistan certainly does have nukes..... They have been detonating them on a regular basis trying to keep up with India. This is a huge issue in the world right now as India and Pakistan are in a nuclear arms race with one another.



To the original post. Lord help us if Nuclear Weapons ever become offensive weapons again. Once a country opens the door to their use (USA even more so) then we're all doomed. The only use that they can have if we're to survive is to sit silent and detour everyone else from using them.

 

[Don M]

I must disagree on the Pakistanis having nukes. They do not and are not even suspected of having them. They are not even on the list of actively seeking them.

Libya on the other hand is a suspect and have been offering countries as much as 15 billion dollars to buy one.



Your airburst/groundburst points are valid.



I know a little more about nuclear weapons than most might think. I worked in the INEL (Southeastern Idaho) on fire protection issues for years.

Protecting nukes from fire and the facilities that house them is very important.

The INEL is now called the INEEL. My post on "clean nukes" is somewhat general, they are not clean, just clean enough for that job. The majority of our nukes are airburst anyway. There would be no need for ground burst or sub-ground burst bombs to kill the soldiers. No bunkers to worry with. Remember in the 50's the Russians detonated a nuke close to the border of Afghanistan and no-one is glowing green.

It can be done without much concern for our safety and will surely send a message.



Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

Been thinking this over for days... ... .



It would get the point across, eh?



Don't forget China has things we wished they did not. Remember they were jerks about the spy plane.



As much as I would like to ELIMINATE the Middle East, I start thinking about the millions of people over there that just want to be left alone and live, just like us.



I think we are better off taking out the trouble makers and their backers, keep them running, don't ever stop, this will be a forever thing, tracking evil down and destroying it.





Tough questions, even harder answers.



Gene

 

[Don M]

Ray and Roadranger,



I must retract my statement that Pakistan does not have nukes.

I was meaning to say Afghanistan. That is where the fighting will take place. I am tired as can be from all this and wrote the wrong thing.



I know they have them, I meant the Afghans did not.



ooopps!



Don~

 

[Diesel Freak]

INEEL

Don, since you work at INEEL, is SL-1 still hot?



As for fallout... . the weather patterns at the time have a lot to do with the distrubution.



When I was at the KAPL site in NY there was an incident report of a guy that came on site and was a little "hot".



He was not contaminated!



This is what happened: Cheranoble (sp) released Sr 90 into the air. Weather currents carried it into Canada where rain then deposited the Sr 90 on the ground. The Caribou ate the grass that had the Sr 90 in and on it. Look on the periodic table and take note what period Sr is in... . also take note which element is above it. This guy went hunting and took a Caribou that was eating this contaminated grass. Yep, you guessed it. The Strontium went into the guys bones with the Calcium, and that is why he was radioactive.



It did not harm him, but this illustrates why we are not safe from Fallout like you say.



-Cliff



BTW you glow blue not green.

 

[Don M]

Diesel Freak,



The pit is still "hot"



I now longer work at the INEEL. Contract is finished.



New owners, so to speak, Bechtel wouldn't have me



Your on target as far as weather goes.

Ok, lets consider the BLU's (95's and 96's) and get some of the heat advantages for the underground soldiers.

10,000 degrees is nowhere near fission levels, but could be very effective.



A bunch of dead guys on our side is gonna be hard to stomach and could lesson support. Nukes will do it fast and be effective physically and psychologically.



I wanted to ask... did you ever see the big pool at INEL?

I have worked on the old sub a few times.





Don~

 

[wrk2mtch]

I agree! Let's not sacrifice even one more American life to this scum. Nuke them and get it over with. Even if a little fallout reaches Pakistan it's not likely to kill many people and if it does we'll just send them money like we do with everyone else. The only country in the world that has the means to deliver nuclear weapons to our shores is Russia.

 

[Don M]

Terry H,



do not forget China... . they are a suspect for being able to hit the west coast.



Don~

 

[Diesel Freak]

never saw the "pool".



But when I applied for the Reactor Supervisor job at WSU Pullman, I got a very good tour. They were critical when I was there... . that was cool, there was a bight sky blue glow around the core. The only thing between me and the fuel was 24 feet of water

 

[DRR-24V]

Nukes come in all sizes and applications. I do not believe we will rule them out of our options. If that becomes the only way to win this thing, we will have to use them.

 

[CCahill]

Remember the "Proton" bomb of a few years back?... . this was supposed to cause very little damage to the site, but take out every living being within a hella big area. .



My problem is this..... I am scared $hitless about chemical warfare... "these" people have the capabilities, and the knowhow to make, transport, and discharge same wherever the H#ll they want to A small vial of material is way easy to hide and set off, in the air, water, wherever it would effect a large group of people... we've seen what "these" people are capable of... .



This frightens me



Colin

 

[NVR FNSH]

Originally posted by Don M

they are all Muslims, eventually because they are a differing religion, they will be our enemies. They are the right people.

Not much of an Islamic scholar - can you please cite the passage(s) in the Koran that direct Muslims to kill non-Muslims?



Brian

 

[mikel]

Originally posted by Terry H

The only country in the world that has the means to deliver nuclear weapons to our shores is Russia.

I agree with your feelings, but until last tuesday we didn't think that terrorism on our soil was a problem either. I don't personally believe that anyone but Russia and maybe China can deliver nukes to us via missile, but we (our government) have to assume that others can and will. Besides just because nobody can launch missiles at us does not mean that they can't ship the damn thing right into the middle of one of our major cities and set it off manually. I think we are greatly underestimating our enemies if we believe otherwise.



Mike

 

[Doc Tinker]

I think we can acheive the same effect, of cleaning out the mountains, by pounding the mountains with conventional explosives until they are level. If there are no mountains, where can they hide?



$40 billion should buy enough conventional explosives to do the job, don't you think?



Doc