2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Fuel Tank Float - How many of us had to change it because it deteriorated?

[ILIANBG]

Thank you Bob, for posting and doing the research. Please let us know how did the installation go. If there is enough clearance I will order the 3" ball float. I doubt it will fit through the top opening with the pick up assembly together. I definately want one of those brass ball floats, maybe even two, to have a spare, like almost everything else I have for the truck . So if you do a list, please consider me too.

I hope you'll make it work, as my new OEM float I recently installed is acting up. Thank you for all you help.

Ilian

 

[Alphacowboy]

let me guess, kinda looked like this... https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162740



#ad

 

[rweis]

Well, mine did not look as bad as yours, not sure why though. Mine is an 02 and the only thing I have done to the tank is used Stanadyne PF in every tank.



Here is a pic of the Robert MFG 2" float with the swivel screwed into it (not permanently ie not tight, just for the pic). I took 2 S links off the swivel as I plan to mount the hole in the swivel directly on the fuel level arm and keep it there somehow. It is the "keep it there somehow" that I have not figuered out yet.



Bob Weis

 

[Alphacowboy]

I plan to mount the hole in the swivel directly on the fuel level arm and keep it there somehow. It is the "keep it there somehow" that I have not figuered out yet.



Bob Weis

Should be able to duplicate the way the OEM float is attached I would think. 2 washers and crimp the lever to keep them in place... .



IE

 

[CToney]

I changed my fuel sender/float on my truck last fall. I also put an inline fuel filter before the lift pump and got rid of the fuel heater prescreen. The inline filter should help prolong the life of the lift pump. We have the inline fuel filter on our tractors and have not had a lift pump failure even with a lot of hours.

 

[rweis]

Ok, exactely how do you do the "crimp"? Can you get the arm only off the rheostat so you can work on it without destroying the rheostat?



I'm thinking of brazing a "Thomas Betts L35-B2 Terminal lug" I found cruising Home Depot looking for ideas to attach the float.



Or



Maybe bending the float arm where the old float was into a circle (with the circle under the existing OEM setup) and attaching the swivel onto the loop before it is closed.



Or attaching one of the brass S hooks that come with the swivel into the circle idea above.



You have to be very careful about changing the height of the float system so the wiper arm will report the correct ohms at the correct tank depth.



When I took my canister apart I measured the arm travel and the tank depth. My fuel gauge does not move for the first 1/4 tank, and I think the OEM float is about 1 1/2" under fuel level when the tank is full. When the tank is empty there was about 3 inches in the tank which correlates to about 10 gallons which checks with the 24 gallon typical fill for a 35 gallon tank.



I have to be careful about how much fuel is remaining at the "low fuel" light, because I can not have the draw straw ever become uncovered.



With the concept of mounting the float on the swivel and the swivel on the fuel float arm which adds maybe 1" more verticle displacement than the OEM setup, when the arm signals "low fuel" there should be 4" of fuel in the tank, which would not be a bad thing as I am about to add an aux tank before we RV this summer.



Bob Weis



Float count:

me +1

Ilianbg +2

total = +3

 

[Alphacowboy]

Ok, exactely how do you do the "crimp"? Can you get the arm only off the rheostat so you can work on it without destroying the rheostat?

use a bolt cutter, just dont cut it. slowly crip it until the point where the washer cant slide off. just like how they did the end that is holdint the washer on for the OEM float. also, what about threading the lever part, an using a nylon locking nut on eash side? Very small I know, but I would think that would work too. The idea of brazing a stop on there too is a good idea as well. That definately would hold it I would think.



As far as worried about fuel levels, I would worry about it too much. As with the ball float on top of the fuel arm, its going to say your empty when you probably still have a good couple inches of fuel in the tank as where before it would have read maybe a quarter tank. Know what I mean? The lever will actually be lower than what it was at with the OEM float at all times unless you bend the arm.

 

[rweis]

One of the things we have to be careful of is weight.



The guys at Robert MFG said that the 1/4" x 10" brass arm (Robert MFG stock) might be too much weight for the 2" float. I think I can safely say about 2 ounces is a pretty safe bet.



As we get closer to a mounting solution we also need to be able to have any TDR member accomplish it, or be as universal as possible. That is one reason I was looking in HD for something someone in Utah could get from a hardware store and use. We all have the same problem spread over several years.



I am going to call Robert MFG and ask what it would take to do the smallest 2" ball production run to see what kind of $$ we are talking about. Maybe it is something they could do as a "filler" during slow production times.



Would the nylon in the nylon lock nut survive diesel over a long period of time?



I thought about threading the arm, but unless you can get the arm off to work on it that might lend itself to damage of the rheostat system.



I do not know what kind of metal the arm is made of, mallable?, stiff?, bendable?, breaks if bent? could you braze a washer system onto each side of the float?, would it even take brazing a washer onto it?, I do not know. I remember seeing them for sale on EBay for ??$50 and may buy one to experiment with.



I will not be at a "tank remove opportunity" until about April 7. Then I'll change my float, fill it up, and see how it goes (It takes me about 20 days to run through a tank of fuel).



Bob Weis

 

[MLee]

One of the things we have to be careful of is weight.



The guys at Robert MFG said that the 1/4" x 10" brass arm (Robert MFG stock) might be too much weight for the 2" float. I think I can safely say about 2 ounces is a pretty safe bet.



As we get closer to a mounting solution we also need to be able to have any TDR member accomplish it, or be as universal as possible. That is one reason I was looking in HD for something someone in Utah could get from a hardware store and use. We all have the same problem spread over several years.



I am going to call Robert MFG and ask what it would take to do the smallest 2" ball production run to see what kind of $$ we are talking about. Maybe it is something they could do as a "filler" during slow production times.



Would the nylon in the nylon lock nut survive diesel over a long period of time?



I thought about threading the arm, but unless you can get the arm off to work on it that might lend itself to damage of the rheostat system.



I do not know what kind of metal the arm is made of, mallable?, stiff?, bendable?, breaks if bent? could you braze a washer system onto each side of the float?, would it even take brazing a washer onto it?, I do not know. I remember seeing them for sale on EBay for ??$50 and may buy one to experiment with.



I will not be at a "tank remove opportunity" until about April 7. Then I'll change my float, fill it up, and see how it goes (It takes me about 20 days to run through a tank of fuel).



Bob Weis

Bob;

Is it possable to put a small tube through the ball, solder it and then flatten the rod and insert it into the ball and use a slide on pal nut and washer on both sides of the ball to hold it on the rod? A hobby shop would have a small tube such as this, and maybe the nut and washers to. Maybe Roberts would be willing to eliminate the threaded insert for there rod and install the tube in its place.

The rod you are refereing to is the rod that the float attaches to? it is bendable. On mine the rod just pops off for easy replacement. After installing you would have to see where the level indicater is going to be and get some idea as to where the level is going to be. OR an approximate middle reading according to OHM readings.

I tryed a Evaperetive cooler water float on mine but found that it leaked, fuel got into the float some how, and it was sealed.

This a worth while project, just time consuming and labor intensive.



Marv.

 

[MLee]

just another look at the floats

Bob;

I believe that the 183 and 183E would also work. 1. 83 X 5" Your not talking a lot of weight here and the bouncy, being there size looks like they would work pretty good. Just a thought. with mounting the same way as I previously mentioned. I have a gas float I was messing with, If I can locate the tube I will try and solder in a tube to the float and see how it will work.

Marv.

 

[rweis]

I think the 183 series would also work.



Roberts can manufacture the ball floats with the tube attach method as well, you just have to ask them to do it and the cost etc.



I got the last 2" ball float. I thought the 2" would float closer to the float arm than the cylindrical one and somewhat smaller, however the 1. 83 x 5 is an alternative to a production run.



They said they discontinued the 2" ball because it had limiting bouyancy if attached to their 1/4" x 8" float arm plus the swivel, and in turbulent fluids it could be easily dragged under if near it's bouyancy limit. Not our case, but a consideration in some applications.



Robert's was VERY easy to work with and they were the one's that said they could do a production run of the 2" if we had enough members that needed one (they are not going to destroy the manufacturing jigs quite yet).



I am glad more members are working on this. Try the 183 series and see how that goes. One comment in this thread about the 3" float was could the 3" float go through the canister tank opening with all the rest of the canister?



Try the 1. 83 x 5 and see how it works.



Bob Weis

 

[MLee]

Brass Float

I found my old Brass Float, Drilled holes and soldered a tube in to it. The rod is 3/32 and inserted it into the float It is 3" long 1" wide 5/8" deep, square type thing. It is out of an old Carb That I had laying around. I think that it would work well.

Draw back would be rattling against the tank untill the level droped down far enough. Maybe it would be heard and maybe not.

Took pictures but the file will not load. It is a PDF, I'll see what I can do.

Marv.

 

[rweis]

Well, I got around to going to the local REAL auto parts house (they build high, high perf race engines and cars) for some advice on this tank float thing.



Tom showed me a Stewart Warner adjustable fuel level system (tanks 12" - 24") and that system has the same kind of rheostat we have (a little different ohm values 35 - 240, vs our 20 - 220) but it has a synthetic cork that is good in all fuels including racing fuel and diesel. It also has a brass float option. It also has a mounting backing plate option with the gaskets etc etc etc.



Why not use the SW float (synthetic or brass) on ours?



AND if this DC float thing gets to be a PITA, then on my 2002 tank just forward of the canister is a flat part of the tank I think the gassers use as a place for a tank vent, but is a great place to put the SW indicator / float ect and be done with the little fragile DC OEM rheostat arm system.



I know the ohms are not QUITE right, but I bet Gary can figure out a resistance bridge to match the SW 35 - 240 to our DC 20 -220 system. My DC system does not measure the first 1/3 of the tank anyway .



Anyway on a different note -- DrawStraw



I towed this weekend and the fuel pressure was so steady it was unbelievable. ONLY difference was the DrawStraw. Finally I have a stable fuel system under all loads. Now back to the regularly scheduled thread.



Bob Weis

 

[BarryG]

I have a question for some of you fuel gauge gurus. Is there any reason we could not use a capacitance type sender instead of the stock float type. Is there a way to attach that to the stock gauge. Westach makes a cap type.

http://www.westach.com/

if it doesnt show up go to hardcopy catalog on the left and then down to page 36 and take a look.



Can someone tell me why this wouldnt/couldnt work with the stock gauge. Sorry not trying to be stupid but I couldnt wire my way out of a wet paper sack maybe electricute my way out but thats about it.

 

[MLee]

BarryG;

A project was done similer to this a few years ago when the 2nd gens started to have these problems. But it seemed to be rather involved and not to many followed the trend. I don't know if you would be able to find the threads now.

Marv.

 

[rweis]

I remember a thread about converting to a capacitor fuel level sensing system.



I think the key is that the system would use the same 20 - 220 ohms. I have looked at the Stewart Warner system that is 35 - 240 ohms and that is the only issue I can see. The Stewart Warner system has a mounting plate you can put inside the tank for the backing plate for the screws and mounting nuts. It also has fuel gaskets for both sides to make sure of no leaks. There are a couple of 3rd gen threads about OEM tank vent fittings at the same mounting location that leak water into the fuel tank, but they are not well mounted into the fuel tank body. I think with the steel backing plate, gaskets, and enough Permatex Black RTV you could seal that mounting area without question. On my 2002 there is even a tank moulded flat location to mount it just forward and up from the removable canister. Very enticing idea though. I would need help in developing a resistance circuit that would make 35 - 240 look like 20 - 220 so the OEM gauge would read as correctly as it does.



I'll go back and see if I can find that thread on the capacitance fuel level sender.

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165333&highlight=capacitance

tractorface in the following thread states he did a capacitance system

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120094&highlight=capacitance

This one has a great fix to the OEM sender mechanism and a really good pic of the fix and a DC part number of JUST the fuel level rheostat.

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105129&highlight=capacitance

Here tis - thread reply #13 is the capacitance probe and where to get it correctly built to our system 20 - 220 ohms, however read on and he had to change the wire harness somehow.

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110157&highlight=capacitance



BTW I have 1 of CStewarts fittings that I was going to use to do a 3/8 pickup like he did, but did the DrawStraw instead. I do not need the CStewart fitting now if anyone is interested. It is like the DrawStraw metal fitting but with only 1 @1/4 npt threaded hole. PM me if interested.



I even looked at TEMPO marine fuel reporting systems. They have a mechanical gauge that you can add an electrical readout sensor unit to it. (I think I am going to use the mechanical gauge only in a bed aux tank I am about to do) However, it works back to 35 - 240 ohm (the industry standard) and the OEM fuel gauge would not read correctly.



GARY - Any ideas on a resistance circuit to subtract a resistance value over a range of resistance? ie 35 - 240 ohms -> 20 - 220 ohms?



I like the Stewart Warner system, very industrial strength, well made unit and Stewart Warner has been in the fuel level sensing business a long time. Just the wrong ohms.



Of course you could mentally adjust what the OEM gauge reads with what is actually happening in the tank. Less than full on OEM gauge (35 ohms)= full actual tank level; empty on OEM gauge (220 ohms)= not quite empty actual tank level. It would provide a safety margin on the OEM gauge though. The "low fuel" light would come on early but you would know it reads less than actual and you could go probably to OEM gauge empty and still have the 10 gallons remaining like we do now when the "low fuel" light comes on.



My OEM gauge reads full until I have used about 1/4 tank because the OEM float is 1 1/2" UNDER the surface of the fuel when the tank is full and has to sit under fluid level until the fluid level is used and it can actually "float".



Bob Weis

 

[BarryG]

Marv & Bob

Thanks after Marvs post I did a search and found the first three threads you mentioned Bob and emailed Tractorface about the wiring but hadnt seen the 4th one with some great info in it. Sounds like you can get the right resistance levels for the cap sender just need to figure out how to wire it up. Hopefully Tractorface will get back with me on how he wired it up.

I am seriously considering getting a transferflow midship replacement 56gal tank so that would be the prime time to do whatever it is I am going to do with it. Thanks for the help.

Barry

 

[rweis]

I think I am going to go the route of the mechanical OEM rheostat for right now. I am going ot modify mine with the screw and spring concept so it will read better longer. I have a brass 2" float to replace the OEM float so I should have just about everything to rebuild it as it should have been to start with.



I am going to get a spare rheostat from DC and see if it is workable on the Stewart Warner physical frame. Maybe the rheostats are made similarly and will interchange. It would be easy to reroute the wiring. You would gain vertical adjustment as well as horizontal adjustment for the float orientation and with the new ball float also gain length of the float arm as well so we will have all 3 axis of adjustment.



Float rheostats have been around for a long time and I think the concept is valid, just have to get the hardware up to snuff and reliable quality.



You go with the capacitance system and we will then have a couple of different ways we will be able to do this correctly.



Bob Weis

 

[MLee]

pics of brass float

been trying to bring these into play and have had a problem getting them to show.

 

[MLee]

So do you think this would work?? This is a side mounted float. [in carb] The bouency is good and it draws just under the rod for flotation. looks good to me and will try it if and when mine goes bad. Again.

I went to Summit Racing and found flosts there for $9. 00-$13. 00.

Marv.