synthetic oil suggestions

[Grizzly]

I certainly think you have that right! Believe what you want, and I'll believe the FACTS!



Wayne

What facts? I have yet to see any proof to support your claims.

 

[amsoilman]

What facts? I have yet to see any proof to support your claims.

Well, Here is "PART" of an SAE paper SAE Technical Paper 952553, that was written in 1995. This document is 12 pages long, so can't post it ALL here.



A Synthetic Diesel Engine Oil with Extended

Laboratory Test and Field Service Performance





ABSTRACT



This paper describes the engine test and extended oil drain field performance of new synthetic engine oil technology developed for use in North American low-emission heavy-duty Diesel engines. The resulting formulation utilizes an advanced additive system specifically tailored for synthetic base stocks which exceeds current industry and engine builder targets in critical performance tests. Use of synthetic base stocks allows the formulation of engine oils with a unique combination of performance characteristics, which include meeting SAE 5W-40 viscosity requirements for cold starting benefits while maintaining low volatility loss at high temperature for oil consumption control. In addition to meeting API CG-4, CF-4F, CF-2, CF, SH and EC requirements, this technology has also demonstrated exceptional performance in extended-length Diesel and gasoline engine tests. Furthermore, it has also performed very well in extended service interval field tests.

At drain intervals up to four times those normally recommended, excellent engine wear, deposit protection, and oil consumption control have been consistently demonstrated. Additionally, fuel economy benefits in excess of 4% relative to SAE 15W-40 conventional mineral oils have been documented.

The desire to reduce costs associated with the operation of heavy-duty diesel engines has prompted considerable interest in extending the mileage and/or time between engine and vehicle service intervals. Extended service intervals for engine and other vehicle lubricants offer the potential) for multiple cost benefits. Lower cost for consumable materials (lubricants and filters), reduced labor costs for scheduled maintenance, less out-of service time for engines and/or vehicles, and lower expenses for disposal of used oil and filters are several potential benefits that could be realized by extending service intervals. As operating costs rise, the incentive for fleet operators to extend engine service intervals increases. It is critical, however, that extension of engine service intervals does not negatively impact engine reliability and durability since increased repair costs and engine down-time would rapidly offset cost benefits gained by extending service intervals.



At the same time that engine operators are recognizing the benefits for extending service intervals, diesel engine manufacturers are producing updated emission controlled engines with significantly higher specific power output than the older engines they replace. Therefore, operating conditions for engine oils are likely to be more severe due to potentially increased thermal and load stresses. Engine builders and operators also expect improved durability from modern diesel engines, further increasing the performance demands on engine oil technology. Combining a move to extended oil drain intervals with the introduction of engines with higher power densities and longer service lifetimes increases the challenges for developing engine oils capable of providing the level of protection needed to prevent lubricant related engine problems.

The objective of the work described in this paper was to develop a high performance diesel engine oil with the capacity to provide the maximum level of engine protection at extended oil drain intervals.



PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT STRATEGY



The performance benefits of well balanced engine oils formulated with synthetic polyalaolefin (PAO) base stocks have been well documented in the literature (1-4); therefore, this was considered as the preferred approach to develop the best possible premium diesel engine oil. A number of Synthetic diesel engine oil formulations, based on specially developed additive technology, were used as the starting point. The additive components were selected to optimize the heavy-duty diesel engine performance of the final product while maintaining a high level of gasoline engine test performance. For example, the ashless dispersant and metallic detergent systems were carefully balanced to minimize formation of diesel piston deposits.



Additionally, the viscosity of the base stock system and concentration of viscosity improver polymer were selected to provide a product meeting SAE 5W-40 viscometrics. This viscosity grade was considered to be optimum for this application since it allows for exceptional low temperature properties while maintaining the high temperature viscosity at a level typical of modern Diesel engine oils. Some of the characteristics of the resulting synthetic heavy-duty diesel engine oil (SYN-DEO) are summarized in the following section.



Many units have operated on SYN-DEO in heavy-duty, long-haul service at extended oil drain intervals, with some units on drain intervals beyond 100,000 miles. Even under these conditions, SYN-DEO has consistently provided measurable benefits in terms of improved engine performance.

Fleet tests with SYN-DEO are being conducted in Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel and Mack engines.

CONCLUSIONS



An SAE 5W-40 synthetic heavy duty diesel engine oil exceeding CG-4, CF-4, CF-2, CF, SH, and EC performance specifications has been developed. Results from this study indicate that formulating an optimized high performance additive system utilizing synthetic base stocks provides a product with a combination of unique physical properties, and laboratory and field engine performance attributes. The high level of performance documented for SYN-DEO in standard and extended-length engine tests was further demonstrated in field testing using greatly extended oil drain intervals. The successful performance of SYN-DEO in severe fleet service confirms the potential for premium synthetic diesel engine oils in extended service applications. Application of this technology offers numerous significant benefits to engine

users.



The extraordinary rheological characteristics of SYN-DEO make it well suited for applications where low temperature engine operation or high temperature oil stability are of concern. The outstanding pumping and cranking performance of this product offers excellent low temperature starting performance. At the same time, the synthetic base stocks provide a product with kinematic and high-temperature high-shear viscosities at levels typical of premium SAE 15W-40 mineral oils. Additionally, the high temperature volatility of SYN-DEO is well below that of most multigrade diesel engine oils.



2. When used at standard oil drain intervals, SYN-DEO will provide a substantial performance reserve in the areas of soot dispersancy, viscosity stability, sludge and deposit control, engine wear, and oxidation stability, with reduced Oil consumption and improved fuel economy, all of which should contribute to extended engine life.





Wayne

 

[Grizzly]

Well, Here is "PART" of an SAE paper SAE Technical Paper 952553, that was written in 1995. This document is 12 pages long, so can't post it ALL here.







Okay, Who wrote the paper, an Amsoil person. So what proof is that. I'm an engineer, I too can write a paper. It won't prove anything. What does Cummins say about your paper? What does Cummins say about your oil?

 

[AKaiser]

SAE Technical Paper 952553 was written by four researchers at Mobil Oil Co.



http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/952553



SAE Technical Papers

Title: A Synthetic Diesel Engine Oil With Extended Laboratory Test and Field Service Performance

Document Number: 952553



Author(s):

S. Kennedy - Mobil Research and Dvlp. Corp.

M. A. Ragomo - Mobil Research and Dvlp. Corp.

J. R. Lohuis - Mobil Research and Dvlp. Corp.

W. H. Richman - Mobil Research and Dvlp. Corp.

 

[AKaiser]

More good info. This talks about extended drain intervals using bypass filters. It shows the payback period based on sump capacity and whether you use petroleum or synthetic oil.



http://p2library.nfesc.navy.mil/P2_Opportunity_Handbook/6_II_1.html

 

[pwr2tow]

Mineral oil cannot be made 5W-40 because it would take excessive additives, and you would need to start out with 5 weight, rather than 10 weight, and it would cause excessive deposits in the engine as the additive breaks down. Synthetic does not need those additives, so it does not break down, staying cleaner.

Ah, what do you think synthetic oils are made from, magic?

Mineral oils and synthetic oils both use the same additives. Each oil developer just uses different amounts to which they think is more suitable for their product.

 

[AKaiser]

Ah, what do you think synthetic oils are made from, magic?



Mineral oils and synthetic oils both use the same additives. Each oil developer just uses different amounts to which they think is more suitable for their product.

True. Amsoil's oils have different additive packages than Mobil 1, for example.

 

[BGlidewell]

My 2cents:



I don't think this has been mentioned.



Synthetics give you an extra margin of protection against heat. To me, that alone is worth the cost of admission.

 

[pwr2tow]

(quote=pwr2tow If you really look at the whole picture and trade vehicles every 3-5 years and put on 50,000-75,000 miles why even change oil. Change the oil filter every 6 months add back the quart or so of fresh oil and let the next owner worry about it. (/quote)

I certainly wouldn't want to buy a vehicle from you, if you do that kind of maintenance!

What!!!! Isn't that the biggest selling point for using synthetic oils?

Seriously guys, I like to poke fun at all the advertising hype about synthetic oils. Claims true or untrue we'll never know. You can take one side advocated by synthetic oils and pit them against the other side advocated by regular oil research. Throw them both in a barrel and come out with the same claims pitting each other against each other.

Reality is that regular oils are refined so well these days that they mimick synthetic oils. That's the only way they can be called synthetic oil. Case in point
Rotella 5-40 synthetic.

 

[betterthanstock]

Ah, what do you think synthetic oils are made from, magic?



Mineral oils and synthetic oils both use the same additives. Each oil developer just uses different amounts to which they think is more suitable for their product.

Synthetics have a natural temperature/viscosity curve that is multigrade from the start, so if they do need any VI improvers, it is a very tiny amount, compared to mineral oils. (VI improvers are a polymer, a plastic which forms engine deposits).

It's the synth. oil molecule itself that does not thin out as quickly at high temp as the type I or II mineral grades. That's what the 2 numbers mean. One is the viscosity at freezing temperatures (the W number), the other is at boiling point. The lower the W number, the thinner at cold start. That's where you save the money, over mineral oil. (better cold engine MPG).



To make 5W-40, or 5W-30, you start out with 5 weight oil. Then add enough VI additives to maintain thickness when hot, at the 30, or 40 weight. It takes more additives to thicken it to 40, than to 30, but synthetics may not require any, or very little additives. That's why with mineral oil they start out with 15 weight and produce 15W-40, so they don't use too much VI additives. Almost nobody recommends 10W-40 anymore (for gassers) due to excessive engine deposits from too much additives.



Now, some people use a 5W-30 synthetic. That would be thinner when hot also, and would get you better MPG when hot, at the risk of extra engine wear at high loads/speeds. I wouldn't use it until at least 30K on the engine, to make sure it's nicely polished before using such thin oil, or you may get metal-to-metal contact. It is probably too thin for "Bombed" engines.

 

[DFranks]

This is the oil I plan on using for my truck (0W40) synthetic.

Only when after extreme blue is worn out and needs to be changed.



http://www.esso.ca/Canada-

English/Files/Products_Lubes/IOCAENCVLESEsso_Xd-3_extra.pdf

 

[DFranks]

Sorry Link will not work. Try this file for info



BTW the -TBN 12. 2

 

[amsoilman]

Not quite. Synthetic oils can be called Synthetic simply because of a law suite between Castrol Syntec and Mobil1. The API and the SAE, the two governing bodies on engine oils, had NEVER defined the differences between synthetics and Petrolium oils, only that they had to meet the requirements... ... ... ..... PERIOD! The outcome of the law suite simply states SYNTHETICS are nothing more than a marketing claim! ANY oil manufatures can put the word "Synthetic" on a container, and sell as a synthetic!



You can get the entire document from:LUBRICANTS WORLD, a puplication of Hart Publications, Inc. 4545 Post Oak Place, Suite 210 Houston, TX 77027, or 8000-874-2544.



Wayne

 

[pwr2tow]

Synthetics have a natural temperature/viscosity curve that is multigrade from the start, so if they do need any VI improvers, it is a very tiny amount, compared to mineral oils. (VI improvers are a polymer, a plastic which forms engine deposits).
It's the synth. oil molecule itself that does not thin out as quickly at high temp as the type I or II mineral grades. That's what the 2 numbers mean. One is the viscosity at freezing temperatures (the W number), the other is at boiling point. The lower the W number, the thinner at cold start. That's where you save the money, over mineral oil. (better cold engine MPG).

To make 5W-40, or 5W-30, you start out with 5 weight oil. Then add enough VI additives to maintain thickness when hot, at the 30, or 40 weight. It takes more additives to thicken it to 40, than to 30, but synthetics may not require any, or very little additives. That's why with mineral oil they start out with 15 weight and produce 15W-40, so they don't use too much VI additives. Almost nobody recommends 10W-40 anymore (for gassers) due to excessive engine deposits from too much additives.

Now, some people use a 5W-30 synthetic. That would be thinner when hot also, and would get you better MPG when hot, at the risk of extra engine wear at high loads/speeds. I wouldn't use it until at least 30K on the engine, to make sure it's nicely polished before using such thin oil, or you may get metal-to-metal contact. It is probably too thin for "Bombed" engines.

It's additives that keep the engine clean. Rubish about engine deposits, That's old school from days long ago when additives were not used.

The main reason engine developers don't recommend 10-40 is not because of engine deposits. The tolerances are so tight (close) that with a heavier oil you have more static resistance. Also with tolerances so tight you could spin a bearing with heavier oils. Also with tolerances so tight the oil film in heavier weight oil is thicker which could lead to not enough oil film between surfaces.

There is no money saves when it comes to developing synthetics vs regular oils. It still costs more to produce synthetics (at least we're lead to beleave it is because of cost) vs regular oils.

Ah, enough of this thread, I'll move onto more interesting things.
Have a good day ladies and gentlemen.

 

[MLisle]

when i researched dino vs syn oil i found that they preformed the same at the recommeneded oil changes. I changed to all amsoil because I can do fewer oil changes which equals less time under the truck and less contaminated oil to dispose of. YMMV (your mileage may vary)

 

[Grizzly]

It's additives that keep the engine clean. Rubish about engine deposits, That's old school from days long ago when additives were not used.



The main reason engine developers don't recommend 10-40 is not because of engine deposits. The tolerances are so tight (close) that with a heavier oil you have more static resistance. Also with tolerances so tight you could spin a bearing with heavier oils. Also with tolerances so tight the oil film in heavier weight oil is thicker which could lead to not enough oil film between surfaces.



There is no money saves when it comes to developing synthetics vs regular oils. It still costs more to produce synthetics (at least we're lead to beleave it is because of cost) vs regular oils.



Ah, enough of this thread, I'll move onto more interesting things.

Have a good day ladies and gentlemen.

Good post, you said it like it is. You know Amsoilman is just using this TDR to sell more of his products. I'm not buying it.

 

[amsoilman]

Good post, you said it like it is. You know Amsoilman is just using this TDR to sell more of his products. I'm not buying it.

The person that started this "Thread" was asking questions about Synthetic oils! We need to FOCUS on this.



Now if you want to know more about oils and additives, BOTH Petrolium and Synthetic, check this out! There are many links in this page that will give you lots of info!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil







Wayne

 

[Grizzly]

The person that started this "Thread" was asking questions about Synthetic oils! We need to FOCUS on this. Now if you want to know more about oils and additives, BOTH Petrolium and Synthetic, check this out! There are many links in this page that will give you lots of info! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil Wayne

Thank Wayne, interesting web site. I still prefer Delo 400.

 

[amsoilman]

Originally Posted by pwr2tow

It's additives that keep the engine clean. Rubish about engine deposits, That's old school from days long ago when additives were not used.



He has it partialy correct. Petrolium oils do use detergent additives, but a "True" synthetic that uses a GROUP IV or V base does not, as those base stocks have a Natural detergency.



And as far as deposits go, do you know that Toyota just lost a "Class Action" lawsuit because of sludge buildup in some of their Engines.



Wayne

 

[pwr2tow]

Class action lawsuits are meaningless in todays sociaty. Did you know Mobil lost a lawsuit quite a few years ago about synthetic oils. Seems regular oils can be called synthetic oils too. Seems synthetic oils are made from petroleum base. Seems regular oils are refined so well they mimick synthetics. Seems group III oils can be called synthetic. O. J. was also aquited of commiting murder. A lady won millions for her own stupidity of spilling McDonalds coffee in her lap. It was later dismissed in appeal court... . and on..... and on..... etc..... etc... .