WVO People Where Are You?

[DonTX]

I just became aware of this area of TDR, I have strong desires to run my 97 on WVO. I would love to interact with others that have changed to WVO systems and glean additional knowledge about the plus and minus of such a change.

 

[cj hall]

wvo

Hello Don



You found one of the best places for running wvo/svo/and blend fuels.

Most of the people in the area are doing some sort of biofuel. and there is not much of the negative talk you get in other places. :-{}



Welcome and injoy the reading.



cj hall

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Hi Don, been running some DSE style mix through my '98 for some time. Fixing to get started with a fuel line and fuel tank pickup mod tomorrow with 1/2" line all the way. Plumbing in a coolant-heated fuel line heater too. Going to be posting results on CJ's 20-page long DSE thread, so keep an eye on that one

Vaughn

 

[Headshot zod]

I'm waiting on my Frybrid. The kit came on time, the 91 gallon tank was lost. Obviously that isn't Frybrid's fault. So I am in a bit of a snit right now. A very small percentage of Frybrid's customers have really big problems. It would appear that I am in that group. Unfortunately, I believe he has the best kit so I need to tough it out.

 

[DonTX]

Thanks guys. I was originally strong on Greascar but have also become more leaning towards Frybrid setup. For some reason, I cannot get too excited about making biodiesel, sort of "what is the point" at my current learning curve. One can get a little confused reading Frybrid and Greasecar ads, just not smart enough to separate the BS from the real meanings.

I travel long distances, so my goal is to stock up on WVO processed, then carry a lot along on trips since I have a one ton dually to haul it around in. I hear all sorts of horror stories about WVO becoming non available due to buy ups by commercial interests, have not actually checked with any restaurants yet to get my own feel for it.

 

[AndrewKing]

WVO is something I'd like to get into also (except for the whole 2 tanks and worries about switching over to/from diesel for start up and shut down... . Bio seems neat too except for the brewing with lye and alcohol)... . I'd like to know more about using WMO (Waste Motor Oil) since I am under the impression it is as simple as filter and pour into the tank... . Is this the correct assumption?... . Also heard you can run straight WVO (without making it into Bio D or running a heated tank) If you keep the WVO down to about 30% in the summertime?... . How about a WVO/WMO/Diesel mix?... . Any recmmended percentages of each that could simply be filtered and put into the tank?

Thanks

Andrew

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Andrew, yes it's about as simple as filter and burn. It depends on the quality of oil you get. If it's clear at moderate temperatures then the odds are in your favor. . . the stuff I get is often 50% fats & solids.

I heat mine in a turkey frier to about 200-230F, and then pour through two double layers of cloth filters. For my 12-valve this crude method has worked pretty well, I'm generally going 10,000 miles between fuel filter changes. But I'm wanting to set up a little more sophisticated system with "real" filters like what CJ hall supplies so I can ensure adequate filtering.

I don't know what your climate is like but I run a cut of WVO between March and November, sometimes longer if it's mild. I almost always cut mine with a little gasoline, up to 2 gallons per tank. This is what I generally do:

Spring: 10-15%
Summer: 30-50%
Fall: 15-20%

Even though my '98 seems to burn it well I don't think it burns it as optimally as it could. That's why I'm adding the coolant-heated fuel heater. I'm not looking to increase my WVO significantly, I'm mainly wanting to burn it more effectively and help improve the situation I have with heavy-fat WVO. Another reason I want to add the heater is I always have a problem with the "mix" separating out in the tank as I go. Having gas in the mix seems to increase this tendency. The WVO tends to float to the top, so as I burn the tank down the veggie smell gets stronger and stronger. From what CJ was saying ULSD seems to exacerbate this issue too but I haven't noticed it making it any worse.

When I have heavy fat WVO I heat it good for about 10 minutes then add 50% diesel and heat it good another 20 min or so. This seems to "melt" the fats into the diesel. Using the DSE helps with this as well, I put in a double dose. I then let this cool and settle for a couple days and only a small percentage of it resolidifies.

CJ Hall has been a great pioneer of the WVO/DSE method of "bio. " I'm looking to go a little larger scale with this and plan to buy the DSE recipe from him. My biggest challenge is lack of space to have an operation since I have a smallish 2-car garage and live in a pretty nice neighborhood where storing containers or tanks outside would be a real no-no.

Vaughn

 

[DonTX]

Big trucks have been burning their used motor oil for decades, with no problems I am aware of, except mostly old wives tales stories. With 300 gallons on board, 9-10 gallons of WMO during an oil change hardly is noticeable. Some run far more. When changing out fuel filters on my 3406 Cat, I would fill them with Shell Rotella, it would start and run on motor oil as well as on diesel.

You can go to Greasecar Vegetable Fuel Systems or Frybrid Vegetable Oil Fuel Systems and see "kits" if you don't want to make your own conversion, with a pickup an extra tank in the bed increases your range significantly as well, and with simple equipment you can extend your range to anywhere you want to go. Frybrid offers automatic shutdown equipment, so old folks like me don't even have to remember to switch when shutting down.

I guess I am too lazy or just don't want barrels of stuff around cooking and mixing all the time, and you STILL have to buy diesel to mix. My point is that at my stage of discovery, straight WVO conversion seems the only way for me to go, and if I want to pour in my waste motor oil, so much the merrier. I see people are also using waste ATF as well.

With unlimited free or nearly free WVO available all across the country, it appears to be the best at the present time to me. I am nearly convinced that the Frybrid kit is better for my needs.



"

WVO is something I'd like to get into also (except for the whole 2 tanks and worries about switching over to/from diesel for start up and shut down... . Bio seems neat too except for the brewing with lye and alcohol)... . I'd like to know more about using WMO (Waste Motor Oil) since I am under the impression it is as simple as filter and pour into the tank... . Is this the correct assumption?... . Also heard you can run straight WVO (without making it into Bio D or running a heated tank) If you keep the WVO down to about 30% in the summertime?... . How about a WVO/WMO/Diesel mix?... . Any recmmended percentages of each that could simply be filtered and put into the tank?

Thanks

Andrew

 

[JFaughn]

It appears that I am the only nae sayer here , or should I say that the jury is still out .
I'm using bio-diesel [ transesterfication process { removing gliserin }] , for about 1 yr. + ,
I can not afford to do the studies I've read [ having a lab & tearing down eng. for inspection ] .
Also can not afford to experiment with my truck , so I've been following you guys and your efforts for a while .
Then point being that with out actual data [ lab analysis - fuel & crank case oil , engine tear downs ] , its as far as I can see all opinions , 2nd & 3rd hand info .
I would like to think that you folks take this as it is intended , just logical look at the issue .
An analogy could be the way I see some [ shops & individuals ] work in the automotive industry , limited knowledge , frequently putting a part , or parts in to find or fix a problem , rather than diagnostics showing what parts failed & why , then fixing the original problem .
Like I said above , leave the emotion out of it , do not feel insulted , its just trying to gain/give information .
I've seen a number of studies that showed issues with gliserin left in the fuel , then there is salts , waster , PH , ect , all of witch cause all kinds of issues [ just filtering , doesn't get all of that out ] .
Also with the span of yrs. that the fuel systems evolve from one system type to an other , its hard to do all the testing for each , as an example the comin rail systems appear to have issues with the high pressure affecting the gliserin .
The manufactures are changing the systems to go with the change in fuel , they are doing extensive research , with the oil companies to get the fuel & systems to work together , I do not think that with out the labs & teardowns , any homebrewer can keep up , we need to pick a fuel system and fuel for that .
Enough for now , again this is an exchange to develop ideas , not a knock on anybody .
Thanks John

 

[DonTX]

Thanks for sharing your views, I for one appreciate that.

To play the devils advocate for your convictions if I may, I submit that we are never going to be able to see anybody putting big bucks into testing most of the type stuff we are dealing with here. My consolation to that is being basically chicken also, I have waited for others to prove the values in the school of trial and error. It takes very little searching to find that WVO has been used for millions of miles with no bad effects whatever.

That is what has led me to believe that WVO is a way to go, the caution to me is getting the water separated, that can be a killer for sure, I have seen what it can do.

 

[Msilbernagel]

John & Don - I'm comfortable with both/each of your positions. It's not for everyone... it is not 'pump and forget' like a Shell station with #2. I have to be mindful of contaminants, and the ambient temps, and the characteristics of our rigs (the Jeep doesn't seem to like high % as much). All of which is reasonable for me but not for (for example) my wife.

So - for those willing to make the investment (research, equipment, time, and care) it can be, and for me is, worthwhile.

We've home schooled our four children, and while we love it and the outcomes have been good, it isn't for everyone either.

I'm ok with that too!

Mark

 

[DonTX]

For sure. In my case, I am about to turn 70, very retired, so I have oodles of time to go fetch cooking WVO, filter and demoisturize it, and use it for fuel. Being on a fixed income makes it even more attractive, and of course I just love my cummins/dodge lots!

 

[roverhybrids]

This area of TDR doesn't get much traffic. It can be real difficult to get the facts like John said since there isn't any real testing.



I own an 04. 5 Dodge with my system and about 25,000 WVO miles with 43K total and everything is great. I have a customer with over 50K miles on WVO, 160K+ total miles on an 03. I know of other with well over 100K on WVO.

The 12 valve 2 gen trucks are about the most robust and forgiving for WVO.



The only engine problems I've ever heard of were from people running WVO in a cold engine or without heating the WVO.



Conversions companies AND individuals have advanced the systems and kits available for converting to run WVO.

Still you have to decide for yourself what information you want to accept enough to put your money on it.



For me when I design a system I keep these things in mind.

1. Heat the WVO to 160F min, ideally closer to 200F

2. Seperate filtration for the WVO and diesel

3. Seperate pumps for both fuels. This allows you to default back to diesel if you were to have a problem.

4. Filter flow rate. Does the filter flow enough WVO to feed your engine under load.

5. WVO pump performance. Can the pump supply the fuel needed under load.

6. Can the WVO system keep up with the performance upgrades of the vehicle.

7. Will the system components hold up over time.

8. Does the system heat the WVO enough to flow from the tank, flow through the filter(s),be pumped and still heat the WVO to the minimum temp pre IP. Too much heat at the tank could mean not enough heat in the lines, filters etc which would mean you will be running on cold WVO while you are waiting for the WVO from the tank to reach the engine. To little heat at the tank or line could mean to cold of fuel at the filter etc.

9. Does the system design and components minimise polymerization.

10. Does your vehicle, climate and use justify a WVO system or would you be better served by other methods; biodiesel, blending etc.



There are even more things to consider when designing a system but this should get you started. Specific questions let me know.

 

[Headshot zod]

That is easily the best list I have seen.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

good list for consideration roverhybrids . I would only wonder if 160-200F is too hot for the injection pump. I figure I'll be about 160 once I get my heater in. I'm not looking to run 100% WVO through, maybe 75% max mixed with diesel.

Vaughn

 

[DonTX]

I don't feel like doing a lot of experimenting, so will go with a complete proven system, or possibly put one together from proven items that someone else has done the engineering on, I don't mind paying them for their time and energy working out the bugs. Does anyone on here run a Frybrid or Greasecar system?

 

[RDupree]

i have a gresecar system on my 6. 2 suburban. no problems.

i also have an 85 crewcab that i run blended fuel in. 10 gals to 20 gals diesel.

i'm building a 2 tank system for it,homemade of course.

randy

 

[RDupree]

ohh,the CC is a dodge with a 5. 9 cummins. Randy

 

[DonTX]

Question from the curious: I cannot fathom why you would run a blend when you obviously have wvo capabilities. My guess is that the extra equipment to run straight WVO you don't have yet, but you want to run at least SOME wvo?

Do you have any guidance for a newbie who is wanting to get started running WVO?

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

My reasons are partly that I don't get enough WVO to run 100%, and even if I did I'd rather not because I want some benefits diesel fuel does provide. With its detergents it'll to help reduce deposits. When you run 100% WVO you increase the chances of increased engine and injection system deterioration over time if you don't build an optimal system. Also I think it helps give a little more viscosity stability to the mix. WVO changes vis more readily with temperature change and potentially reduce lubricity to inadequate levels if you heat the fuel and put it under high pressure to inject it (which increases the temperature an additional amount). So my thought is with a little diesel mixed in it'll help with vis stability. . . whether there is any scientific basis for this theory I couldn't tell you, but I feel better with some diesel in the mix. 75% WVO is the highest concentration I ever intend to run, but more likely it'll be in the 50-60% range.

Vaughn