Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Power for 98 12 Valve

[WShupe]

I thought you had the shortblock with the Mahles in it before you cracked 7 bills. 18* with 0. 020" washers is borderline keeping the spray pattern in the 145* bowl @ 0. 667mm=1*. How is that front feed line in the galley plug working out Jim?

 

[WShupe]

JoshPeters and CSnyder, if you choose to bash my opinions on certain items, I would like to explain to you that you are also bashing Jeff Garmon, Keating Shelley, Van Haisley, and many others more associated in the Diesel Performance world than you. So you can attack me, but it isn't all about me.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

I thought you had the shortblock with the Mahles in it before you cracked 7 bills. 18* with 0. 020" washers is borderline keeping the spray pattern in the 145* bowl @ 0. 667mm=1*. How is that front feed line in the galley plug working out Jim?

Na, I did that with the stocker then later that year (04') did 793 when I got the Dragon Flows. Piers built the short block in late 04' and got it running in early 05'..... like Feb time frame.



I like the front additonal feed, it seems to be something to add when keeping the stock inlet like me with only (1) 6AN line into the banjo. If it would clear the housing I would run a 10AN line to the front, might be able to make a 8AN fit with some work.



Jim

 

[Timbeaux38]

At 400 HP and 15* he will eventually need studs and you will be the one responsible when a stock bolt stretches and ruins his head!

God dont tell that to Keating or Garmon.

 

[CSnyder]

WShupe, you do your work the way you want and we will continue to do it the way we see fit for our customers. Im not in here to bash anyone... just tell it the way I know it. I know what works for us and thats how we will continue operating. Just dont come in and accuse us at Triple D of being nothing but parts pushers. We are so much more than that!

 

[CSnyder]

BTW Josh and I havent spoken 2 words to each other since I jumped in on this thread. I tell it the way I see it and so will he.

 

[JoshPeters]

I'm not bashing anyone.

We are having a discussion where in which You have chosen to focus on the fact that SOME guys are getting these engines to hold using the stock head bolts.

Chris and I are talking about the rest of us. The people that MUST have that truck to drive to and from work. Some guys like Chris use that truck to make their living. If that truck is down, that's lost money. Am I as a technician/salesman going to try to pass off that they can run a 400hp truck with stock bolts? Not a chance! As I see it, 350ish is the edge for a WORKING truck.

If you want to talk about play toys, you can go right ahead. I'm talking about real world, out there every day, gotta go or you don't eat, trucks.

Van, Keating, Garmons, Prince, the nice long list of PLAY TOYS that use bolts is just that. A nice long list. Those trucks spend more time appart than they do together. That's fine, they can do that. They can afford to have issues. If the engine goes down... . oh well, find another one. I can't remember who said it, but they litterally just drop in another junk yard engine and run it till it blows.

Yup, those are the guys I want saying that MY daily driver will be good enough.

The biggist thing I see here is, we have a difference of opinion. Like Chris said, you sell your customers what you'd like. We will sell our customers what we like. When it's all said and done, I hope that some day we'll meet up at IRP or some other event, shake hands and enjoy a beer.

 

[WShupe]

Differing opinions I would assume, but I do not see a hp limit on headbolts, more of a boost pressure and timing advance limit. I did not claim Triple D as parts pushers, but maybe our opinions of failure limits vary, or all the trucks I have seen have better than average headgaskets. I am not telling you how to run your business, I am simply saying don't mention that it cannot be done, or be done without failure because it has been and will continue to be done. Thinking outside of the box is where aftermarket parts come from, speaking of which I have turbos and P-pump parts to R&D, so good luck to all in the future, with a grain of salt if you wish.

 

[Timbeaux38]

If you want to talk about play toys, you can go right ahead. I'm talking about real world, out there every day, gotta go or you don't eat, trucks.

Van, Keating, Garmons, Prince, the nice long list of PLAY TOYS that use bolts is just that. A nice long list. Those trucks spend more time appart than they do together. That's fine, they can do that. They can afford to have issues. If the engine goes down... . oh well, find another one. I can't remember who said it, but they litterally just drop in another junk yard engine and run it till it blows.

Yup, those are the guys I want saying that MY daily driver will be good enough.

I'll beer up with you at an event in due time, but you may want to re check your facts before you post about how much time these trucks spend apart. Prince's truck is driven daily and traps at 139. 5 now. Garmon has several high HP rigs daily driven around Atlanta (Including Dunbar's) that use headbolts. I will say that studs are superior to bolts in strength and repeatability, but I dunno about better. If the guys making over 1100 were pushing gaskets out as a result of bolts, you can rest assured that they would be running studs. FWIW, the bolt thing is not for everyone. I would trust only a very few people to perform it on my truck.

Am I as a technician/salesman going to try to pass off that they can run a 400hp truck with stock bolts? Not a chance! As I see it, 350ish is the edge for a WORKING truck.

If you knew how to do it (torque the stock headbolts) correctly, you probably would not be saying this. If folks knew how many 550-650 HP rigs are running around DAILY on stock bolts out of a few select shops, they would deficate themselves. The secret has been out for a while... ... Guess it hasn't gotten around yet.


BTW, how tight can you get studs before yanking out threads?

 

[JoshPeters]

I'll beer up with you at an event in due time



If you knew how to do it (torque the stock headbolts) correctly, you probably would not be saying this. If folks knew how many 550-650 HP rigs are running around DAILY on stock bolts out of a few select shops, they would deficate themselves. The secret has been out for a while... ... Guess it hasn't gotten around yet.





BTW, how tight can you get studs before yanking out threads?

I'm looking forward to the beer!



How to do it, well I have personally pulled a bolt appart going by 10lbs steps from 90lbs up to 120lbs. (by lbs I am saying ft/lbs)



Is it nessissary to go by 5lbs? It could probably be done. That's probably how it's done, if I was to speculate.



How tight... well I know of at least a few trucks running around with 12mm studs that are bravely going up to 160lbs. Another thing I wouldn't dare try, why... because I have streached a stud as well. Could it have been my torque wrench, possibly. But why did it click on the other 24 and not those 2, and those 2 alone?



I believe guys are pushing the limit with bolts. That's fine, I won't play russian roulette with my customers money and time.



Tomorrow... . lets see how quick I can pull a 12v head (with bolts)... . I'm shooting for 30min.



JP

 

[Flying_gage]

Wow! Talk about hijacking a thread! I really, really wanted to keep my nose out of this but when I read this I knew I was in trouble.



"The proof of the matter is that if some people don't push things until they break we will never know the limits of the parts. Why spend money you don't need to on parts you don't need? It is a lot harder to make hp with limited parts rather than just throwing coin at it and hoping it runs up to par. You say overbuild, but the fact is you don't know where the boundary is for stock parts because you don't care, you sell parts. "



WShupe, what you are preaching is reckless. In a monetary sense albeit, but reckless none the less. How could you in good conscience recommend this approach? Not trying to be a D$*k, but man I wouldn't want you around when I am getting ready to assemble the engine for my Mustang. I will overbuild it for my wallet's sake and my piece of mind. If you have a mechanical engineering degree I will eat my words and then some, but you cannot expect a business man to take this approach and stay in business.



I too own a business. I just did some minor electrical work for a customer and code called for 12g. wire. Now, would it have been responsible of me to then say, "nah, all you need is 14g. wire. Code enforcement pushes 12g. because it is more profitable". I think you would agree that would be reckless because countless fires have been attributed to improper wiring and/or faulty wiring, (don't argue this point with me as I am a full time firefighter and a licensed home inspector). But not EVERY improper wiring job has resulted in a fire.



How long do you think I would remain in business? You probably think I am "splitting hairs" here. Maybe I am. But it comes down to the same principal.



In our vaunted judicial system, there is the "reasonable man" test. It is a litmus test of sorts. It means: what would a reasonable person do in similiar circumstances? Reasonable is not a subjective term but an objective term. If metallurgists and mechancical engineers have stated bolts will fail when pushed beyond a certain limit, that then sets the rules for objectivity. Not that others with less knowledge and training have found a "window" in the lifespan of the item. The fact that you have found a way to make them last longer does not obviate that objectivity. Kudo's to you on finding this window of increased life span for these bolts, but you cannot escape the knowledge/experience of the people who imposed the objective limits on these items.



I am looking for a project z-28 for my son and I. I would like it to encompass a engine build up to help teach my son patience. But also I will be able to highlight this very matter with him when it comes time to bolt the heads back on to this motor. Chevrolet specifically calls for new bolts in the heads as the old ones may have stretched. I will be able to teach him at that critical juncture the old truism, "do it right the first time".



You sound very smart. You also sound self taught. Not that that is bad. I am sure you have alot of people who admire your work and sing your praise. Be careful though in listening to "the press" talk about your loftiness as it may be your downfall.



By the way, I am not too far from either one of you, (Western Ill. ). You guys could come over; we could drink beer, argue, shoot stuff and then fall asleep in the yard. I have done it before and it is actually great fun!

 

[WShupe]

I am not preaching that in ideal conditions you use stock components, like I stated previously things can be done effectively that go against common idealistic conception. I will tell you what works regardless of opinions, stock headbolts are easily torqued to 125ft/lb. Is the best option, no, but there is no code when modifying on a budget. I hear you on the 12AWG comment though, my father is a self-employed Electrician, so I have experience of which you speak. Without problems there are no solutions, to date the largest failure I have had is one bent pushrod and 2 well deserved headgasket failures that were simply delaying the innevitable. I have pushed and will continue to push, the people that attempt these feats do it after I tell them the consequences, I do not send them into the dark in good faith, do not make this assumption.

 

[JGrover]

My stock clutch held 265 RWHP and 700TQ Banks Twin Ram powerpack.

Now have #10 plate Very nice plate. Great plate for sliding for/aft for the power/smoke you desire. Read post on TDR that a #10 set back . 040 will not slip the stock clutch. Will want a 14cm wastegated ex houseing. (Helps egts)Can upgrade to a bigger compresser wheel in the future if you want.