High Copper Levels

[Cattletrkr]

My last oil analysis turn up EXTREMELY high copper levels. The past three sample which cover 60K have had copper levels of 8, 9, and 8ppm. This last one went thru the roof at 193ppm.

Write up says it's possibly from "lube oil cooler". Dealer SM said that's one of the ones bigrig drivers watch for so they know when bearings are going bad. I don't like the sound of that.

Truck now has a little over 5K on the current oil. I'm going to sample it again soon and see where I'm at. Maybe someone dropped a penny in the last sample.

Thoughts?

 

[amsoilman]

My last oil analysis turn up EXTREMELY high copper levels. The past three sample which cover 60K have had copper levels of 8, 9, and 8ppm. This last one went thru the roof at 193ppm.



Write up says it's possibly from "lube oil cooler". Dealer SM said that's one of the ones bigrig drivers watch for so they know when bearings are going bad. I don't like the sound of that.



Truck now has a little over 5K on the current oil. I'm going to sample it again soon and see where I'm at. Maybe someone dropped a penny in the last sample.



Thoughts?

This is direct from Caterpiller:



"Per Caterpillar, high levels of copper found in oil analysis are a result of engine cooler core” leaching". The Zinc additive in Diesel Motor oil reacts with the copper cooler core tubes at high oil temperatures. This chemical reaction results in copper oxidation products forming on the surface of the tubes and then coming off into the oil as it washes over and around the tubes. Heat is a catalyst to this chemical reaction. The higher the oil temperature the greater the rate of oxidation and the longer the reaction process is sustained. This does not cause any damage to the cooler core, or to the engine. However, you will see the copper reading elevate to over 100 PPM. Copper is not a particulate in this case but is in solution in the oil. The PPM will start relatively low and increase over 100 PPM and stay at high levels for several intervals, and then return to normal. During the oxidation process, a hard film forms on the tube surfaces exhibiting the appearance of clear varnish. Changes in operating temperatures, and/or changing oil brands can chemically disrupt this film and begin the oxidative leaching processes again. This can occur in any system with a cooler core: Gasoline or Diesel engines transmissions or hydraulic systems. "



If any of the other wear metals, such as chrome, tin, lead were high too, then you may have a problem, but copper alone usually comes from the oil coolers on Diesels.





Wayne

 

[Cattletrkr]

No other metals were out of the ordinary. Soot was higher than usual, but that was it.

Thanks for the info.

 

[CumminsPower98]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. As stated above it is most likely the oil cooler. My numbers have been all over the place with a high of 192. I now have 387k miles and it's still together so it can't be bushings or bearings going bad although I suppose they could have contributed a little.

 

[catoiler]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. As stated above it is most likely the oil cooler. My numbers have been all over the place with a high of 192. I now have 387k miles and it's still together so it can't be bushings or bearings going bad although I suppose they could have contributed a little.

Yea but that cooler starts leaking and the anti freeze will eat the bearings up in no time!

 

[CumminsPower98]

If you read the post by Amsoilman it states that this doesn't hurt the cooler. I have always run nice clean coolant and have had the cooler off once for a leaking gasket and it looked great so it's fine from that side anyway. My guess is that if it got bad enough to start leaking there would be some really wild numbers.

 

[catoiler]

If you read the post by Amsoilman it states that this doesn't hurt the cooler. I have always run nice clean coolant and have had the cooler off once for a leaking gasket and it looked great so it's fine from that side anyway. My guess is that if it got bad enough to start leaking there would be some really wild numbers.

I see it everyday. the copper is striped off the cooler resulting in the high readings. my company would not replace them if their were no problems with them,they are as tight as a drum skin when it comes to spending money. keep an eye on it and do a sample at half your regular time frame.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Been on the TDR board almost 8 years and oil cooler failures are pretty rare. The ones that did fail put oil in the cooling system, not coolant in the oil.

My copper levels spiked on my '01, it went over 200 as I recall.

Vaughn

 

[amsoilman]

Been on the TDR board almost 8 years and oil cooler failures are pretty rare. The ones that did fail put oil in the cooling system, not coolant in the oil.



My copper levels spiked on my '01, it went over 200 as I recall.



Vaughn

My last three oil analysis have shown over 200 also, and I am not in the least concerned, as ALL other wear metals are just fine. As I said before, Caterpiller did some extensive testing and found this is quite common with no adverse effects. I have also seen various other Diesel UOA's that were high in copper as well.



Wayne

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Wayne we've sure seen a lot of threads about high Cu readings over the years eh?

 

[catoiler]

Castrol and Caterpillar said their is something in the new oils that are eating the coolers. I am going to go with them as they seem to have quite a bit of experince on this. by the way our co. is the biggest producers of rock and sand in the us and mexico.

 

[amsoilman]

Wayne we've sure seen a lot of threads about high Cu readings over the years eh?

We sure have! I had one customer that the UOA reportted over 250 Cu, and after much discussion, took it to the dealer and insisted a replacement, which they did. After another 10,000 miles with the new cooler, the Cu readings came back, but not quite as high. This truck now has over 150,000 and still going strong.



Wayne

 

[Cattletrkr]

I'm going to print this thread and give it to my dealer SM when I take the truck in next week. He's not above learning a thing or two and maybe he won't scare the crap out of the next guy who asks him about Cu.

 

[ironbutt]

At 14k mi I switched to Amsoil. The oil analisis on the Rotella that came out at 14k had 8 ppm for copper. the next oil analisis was done at 25k with amsoil. They said it was good and to change filter and top off the oil(but my copper level was 488ppm) Next oil analisis was at 76k still amsoil. copper was 689 ppm. I changed the oil cooler(was afraid of a failure) and switched to Valvoline Blue Cummins oil. Now with 127k oil analisis is 6 copper( much better) No animosity, but from now on its the Cummins rated oil for my truck.

 

[amsoilman]

At 14k mi I switched to Amsoil. The oil analisis on the Rotella that came out at 14k had 8 ppm for copper. the next oil analisis was done at 25k with amsoil. They said it was good and to change filter and top off the oil(but my copper level was 488ppm) Next oil analisis was at 76k still amsoil. copper was 689 ppm. I changed the oil cooler(was afraid of a failure) and switched to Valvoline Blue Cummins oil. Now with 127k oil analisis is 6 copper( much better) No animosity, but from now on its the Cummins rated oil for my truck.

Perhaps you did have a bad oil cooler, you never mentioned what the other metal rreadings were. In all the years I have been involved with oils, I have never seen one that will pick out one metal (copper) and make it wear! So I don't think it was the oil that caused your copper levals to elevate.



Wayne

 

[ironbutt]

In fairnes to Amsoil, I didn't try Amsoil after changing the oil cooler. But at $9 a gallon The Valvoline Blue (Recomended By Cummins) is easier on the pocket. I do change my oil every 6k and at $29 per Gallon. You do the math. I also change oilfilter and fuel filter at 6k too. I do still use Amsoil in my Harley and my lawn mower

 

[st louis assembly]

High analysis levels

How about some of us who use oil analysis sharing the results with others in TDR?



I would do it, if you send me your analysis results, along with year of Cummins and milage and hours on lube. It should be very interesting if I'm not overwhelmed by data. I would give it a try anyway.

 

[steved]

Interesting post by Ralph Wood:



Bob Is The Oil Guy: First UOA results with Motorguard TP filter



The wording from the post::



Interesting quote from the CAT S. O. S oil analysis program.

"Copper is an element that can cause problems for the interpreter. Besides additive packages that can contain copper levels of up to 120 PPM another phenomonon has appeared over the last several years. It is that copper levels can be elevated for no apparent reason.

Investigations suggest that a chemical reaction of copper parts in a component (usually cooler cores) is being caused by a combination of some oil additive packages and high (but not necessarily excessive) temperatures. These copper parts are not wearing, actually oxidizing (oxidation of copper is a normal process that usually occurs over time). At some arbitrary point in the oxidation buildup, some of it leaches out into the oil. Thus, tests indicate copper oxides, not raw or pure copper particles.

The sporadic nature of this phenomenon is caused by the "mix" of the oil additive package, temperature and time (to allow for oxidation to build up). All three of these variables have to interact just right for high copper readings to occur. "



Hopefully this adds some more confusion to the picture...



steved