dying Getag 400 mi from home

[Moab4x4]

Help from the Getrag Preservation Society. A couple of weeks ago I noticed a faint rattle in neutral that went away when I engaged the clutch. Not bad, just a little different. Friday I went 700 mi,half towing ~6k to and from Durango, CO. All went fine, but in retrospect, 3rd syncro was getting stiff.

Unloaded on Monday, ~100 mi from Las Vegas I stop for fuel and 3rd synchro acts gone, 2nd an 4th synchro stiff. I had to get to vegas for a meeting and drove it in. Same status now.

I had overfilled 1 qt with amsoil 15-40 HD about 4k mi ago.

I have only towed this once but I will admit to hot rodding a bit.

Now the big question. What do I do next week when it is time to go home? I have to fly out for a week tomorrow or I might work on it in the eves.

1. Do I change the oil and drive it home? I can do that without much shifting.

2. Do I pull my carpet, removable hump, and inspection cover? What would I be looking for if I did?

3. Can I repair symchros with transmission in truck from the top if I pull xfer case back?



I really don't want to have anyone else work on the truck, but my shop aint here.

TIA

I will check back here when I can for your opinions and hints. Thanks

Oh yeah, what is the secret for getting the shifter back on easy?

 

[MMiller]

Do you have a removable hump? About the only thing you can do by pulling the cover with the trans in the truck is inspect the shafts, and look at the shift forks.



I suppose I would drain the oil, pull the side covers off and see if there is any end play in the shafts. If there is end play, I'd figure out how to get it home on a trailer. If theres end play, bearings will probably fail before you get home. If its indeed just the syncros being worn out, causing grinding or poor shifts, then I'd limp it home, but if there's bearing problems then I would not drive it.



My getrag is making noise again too, and it also started making noise about 200 miles from home. It got me home, luckily I had no trailer. I feel your pain. My getrag will be out of the truck for the 3rd time in about a year.



Michael

 

[Moab4x4]

When I combined the two trucks, I cut the hump out of the old cab to make a removable hump (thanks to a tdr tip).



Hmm, I think it is my synchros. I don't grind, it just won't shift into gear (except 5th) while moving, It does shift in fine when stopped.



I will pull the side covers and inspect for end play as you suggest, thanks. BTW, i haven't yet pulled a load like you do Michael, but I plan on it. I just installed my turnover ball last week.



thanks,

Ken

 

[Forrest Nearing]

My getrag will be out of the truck for the 3rd time in about a year.



Michael

I think the next time I pulled it would be the last... a 4500 swap isn't THAT expensive

 

[1stgen4evr]

A couple of weeks ago I noticed a faint rattle in neutral that went away when I engaged the clutch.



Probably too late for you but may not be for someone reading this post. When your Getrag begins to make noise, the translation of those noises is simply this; Quit driving. A proper Getrag doesn't make noise, period.



Also, poor shifting is seldom the result of a syncro unless it is just one gear. Multiple shift problems will be bearing condition on the main shaft.



Best of luck with whatever you find. There is lots of info regarding rebuild on TDR. And the 4500 as well. Both are good and done right, both are about equal.



James

 

[MMiller]

I think the next time I pulled it would be the last... a 4500 swap isn't THAT expensive

Uhmm, no. I still have 2 or 3 more times to pull my getrag to get it right. My brothers NV 4500 has been apart many more times from 5th gear coming loose. The NV4500 IMHO is no better or no worse then the getrag. I'm just not getting something right. The getrag held up to more abuse then I've put it through in the last year. The first tim I pulled it, a bearing was coming apart at about 150,000 trouble free, abused miles. The second time I pulled it was for a bearing failure due to my mistake in final assembly. This time, I don't know what I will find. If or when I upgrade, it will be to a 6 speed. I will totally bypass the NV4500.



I'd listen to James, he is most likely right. Good luck.



Michael

 

[Moab4x4]

Ouch!!! I was afraid of that. On the way to the airport I had a little time, so I stopped at the parts house and got some oil and cleanup stuff and drained the transmission (it was still above the fill hole).

There were some small bits of metal, but nothing bigger than the head of a pin. That tells me that something is indeed wrong (duh) but I didn't see any big chunks. I tried to get the inspection plate off the side of the transmission, but the tools I had wouldn't get it loose. It had been glued on with blue RTV by PO. Hmmmmmm I wonder why those covers were off of a transmission with 84 k miles?

Anyway I had to be at the airport so I didn't want to get too aggressive with the covers and miss my flight. I overfilled with 5-30 synthetic.

After the transmission had cooled over the past couple of days, here is how it drives: 2nd, I have to be completely still to get there.

3rd. Speed shift works OK, but no synchro. I think my problems at first were that I still wasn't used to the RPM difference between 2 and 3.

4 and 5 work fine. So, I can start in 3rd, speed shift there, or skip it and go to 4.



I am really tempted to try to take it easy and drive it home next week when I get back to vegas.



Thanks for the input James. I was hoping that the rattle was only noticable due to the fact that I have a bunch of sound deadening (I can rarely hear my turbo ) and the sound was being transmitted by the shifter to the cab. My hopes were obviously in vain.



From your experience, with the 4wd, at what point in driving an ill transmission does the damage USUALLY become irreparable or cost prohibitive? I do not like the prospect of a 400 mile tow. :{



Darn, some of the guys from RCC are coming to Moab to wheel end of September and a couple with CTD's. Timing... .

Thanks again,

Ken

 

[DerekW]

exactly why when i stopped working for the one towing company i quickly got to be friends with another. I have his personal cell number and he says to call at anytime and he knows me by voice and name on the phone. always have a buddy in the towing industry cuz you never know when you'll need it.

 

[1stgen4evr]

From your experience, with the 4wd, at what point in driving an ill transmission does the damage USUALLY become irreparable or cost prohibitive?



I don't own a first gen fwd but have seen several after failure. So I can only guess. Clearly the support to the main shaft, by the drop box, holds things in place so that the transmission can be run long after it should have been gone into.



Michael Miller is working on a transmission now that failed in the countershaft bearings. He can describe the damage that happened with continued running. From our conversations, the owner should have stopped sooner. Things running at a skewed position can do serious damage, even with overfill.



That said, I have taken a chance on rattle and pushing the limit to get home. I have a support situation where the worst case would only require to call the shop and have a trailer ride home. I also have a spare transmission so that if it spits the guts out the bottom, I can still repair for cheap.



IF the countershaft bearings don't fail from metal debris, and you run in fourth all the time, you might get home. Don't be tempted to run OD. Fourth is a link up through the mainshaft without radial loads on the countershaft and main shaft. Don't carry or tow ANYTHING. Sit lightly in the seat. Expect to have an exceptionally tight pucker string when you get home.



From your opening comments, I expect that you have not had enough experience to make an informed evaluation of the condition of the transmission.



And again, not throwing rocks but addressing those who might read this post. DON'T DRIVE A RATTLEY GETRAG MUCH MORE THAN AROUND THE BLOCK FROM HOME. You can get your pockets turned out on repair of unknown quality off from home.



DO lets us know the outcome.



James

 

[Moab4x4]

James.

Thank you for such an informative post!!!!! Especially the no OD.

I will post when I get home next week.

Correct, I have never been into the Getrag. My only std trans rebuild was a Studebaker 3 speed OD. In fact I think the transmission is the only major assembly on this truck I have not taken apart. It must have felt slighted.

Oh well, Education never is cheap and If I can at all help it, I WILL NOT DRIVE A RATTLING GETRAG anymore. :-laf

Thanks again,

Ken

 

[Forrest Nearing]

Uhmm, no. I still have 2 or 3 more times to pull my getrag to get it right. My brothers NV 4500 has been apart many more times from 5th gear coming loose. The NV4500 IMHO is no better or no worse then the getrag. I'm just not getting something right. The getrag held up to more abuse then I've put it through in the last year. The first tim I pulled it, a bearing was coming apart at about 150,000 trouble free, abused miles. The second time I pulled it was for a bearing failure due to my mistake in final assembly. This time, I don't know what I will find. If or when I upgrade, it will be to a 6 speed. I will totally bypass the NV4500.



I'd listen to James, he is most likely right. Good luck.



Michael

I've had a 6sp, and they're definately not the end-all by any means... and they're VERY expensive to service! with a fully splined main shaft, the 5th gear problems are totally taken care of. I've got less than $1k in my completely rebuilt NV4500 with fully splined shaft. I built it to replace the 6sp in my last truck (you read that right) CORE on a 5600 is like $1500. If you can get a nice working unit with zero issues for under $2500 you did a good job IMO.



I run 4,000rpm springs in my trucks, so the gear spread on the 5sp vs. the 6sp is a non issue, and the 5sp shifts a lot smoother.



my current truck is getting a little notchy and 3rd gear wants to grind if I shift agressively. the 4500 is cheap enough I'm just going to build another on the side to keep downtime on the truck to a minimum. I'll then go back through the current transmission and have a nice fresh spare just in case!



Parts are readily available and rebuilds are cheap enough, I just pay someone else to do them. I had a 2wd unit that I had converted to 4wd for my last truck. Synchros, bearings, fully splined shaft, new 5th gear/nut, extention housing, rebuild top plate, and all labor I was out the door for $800. I had $150 in the core.



I'm getting a good deal on a built 2wd unit and an FE clutch from a buddy.



I ended up selling my 6sp truck as-is, so I've got everything I need to convert a 1st gen truck (which I've been shopping for!) and whatever truck I have, I plan on having a spare transmission for.



Kind of a long winded post, but the bottom line is I'm a 4500 fan!

 

[WJune]

Regarding 400 mile trip. If I was in your shoes considering the warm weather, I would run 90 wt gear lube. Hopfully it would protect shaft surfaces better than 5w30. Time permitting I would install a oil filter on PTO cover. Should be available at any big truck parts counter. That will trap metal particles in lube quite well. Both my PTO covers were hard to get off 1st time. Getrag must use locktite or glue at factory ? Good luck an welcome to the Getrag hard luck club.

 

[RedRamAndy]

Another thought: I had a Getrag that rattled in neutral, but quit when you pushed in the clutch. It was the clutch disc! New clutch disc got rid of the problem. The center torsional shock spring cluster was loosening and allowing the disc to rattle.
Hard shifts: Does your clutch fully disengage at the bottom of pedal travel? My pedal was hitting the carpet. I found a badly worn pin on the pedal where the clutch master rod hooks up. I've posted before on both these topics. You might find them. The easiest way to search would be by my handle. I haven't posted that much here.
My truck exhibited exactly all the signs yours did. I was prepared for the dreaded rebuild and was very happily surprised at how cheaply I was able to fix it!
Just a few more ideas I had... ... ...

 

[RedRamAndy]

https://www.turbodieselregister.com...993/182949-clutch-pedal-slop.html#post1754911

This is a link to my clutch pedal slop post. Hope I did this link right... .

https://www.turbodieselregister.com...-new-owner-rattling-getrag-2.html#post1618276

This is a link to my clutch rattling problem.

Good Luck!

 

[Moab4x4]

Made it Home !

Thanks for your ideas folks, I made it home without mishap.

The rattle might be a little louder than when I left, but not bad. I can only hear it at idle or over 2200 RPM. My solution was keep the RPMs glued to 1800-2000. Slow trip home, but faster than calling in a favor and a trailer.



Thanks for the clutch ideas Andy, I remember that clutch rod thread.



I will let you all know what I find in the autopsy. I still have the old oil in a drain can and will filter it to really see the chunks that came out.



Thanks again,

Ken

 

[PToombs]

Glad to hear you made it Ken! Hope it's not too much $ to fix!

 

[RedRamAndy]

Glad you made it home Ken! It's always a good feeling when you can de-stress and solve problems on your own turf. Glad to hear of your return. I've been there a few times with my Charger. What a relief!

 

[Moab4x4]

The Verdict

I finally got things dropped and partially disassembled. I have not yet disassembled the output shaft.



The only obvious problem is the input shaft pocket bearing.

That bearing is trashed, small pieces of the rollers are missing and the race is galled badly. It looks like the race is an integral part of the input shaft. :{

All the other bearing and race surfaces look good. The countershaft races are what I would call satin finished where the rollers have been running. I cannot feel any roughness, but they are not as shiny as I would like. No doubt the metal flakes in the oil were not in their best interest.



I am really starting to suspect the machine work on the pilot bearing in the flywheel. The next thing to do is check that out per James' suggestion. It would be quite irritating to have killed a good flywheel trying to make it better.



Is there anything else that would take out that bearing but not the input and output bearings?? If it is a driving style or something that I need to change, let me know.



(I also now know what it means to "tap" the case to get the races out. They must mean a BIG plastic mallet) :-laf



Thanks,

Ken

 

[Moab4x4]

The Question

OK, I can see no visible damage to the syncros or anything else on the output shaft other than the trashed pocket bearing and there is a little deformation on the tips of the teeth on one of the blocker rings next to the synchro next to the pilot bearing.

Do I just replace the input shaft and the pocket bearing or do I disassemble the entire output shaft for inspection? The spin test feels good everywhere. The manual says the snap rings are not to be reused and it looks like a PITA to take apart. I do have a 12 ton shop press, cutoff wheel, chisel, and friends who are mechanics.

Thanks for all the experienced advice.
James, you are right, there is a lot in the archives about this transmission. I am hoping that since my transmission is from a wrecked truck with only 86 k miles that they towed the truck in neutral and trashed the pocket bearing that way. I probably have 2-3 k miles on it since then.

Ken

 

[dpuckett]

I'd replace all the bearings and synchros while I had it apart, just to save possible headaches later. You can reuse the snap rings, just dont tell anyone .



Daniel