WVO - be careful (thread w/ engine damage inside)

[cj hall]

fuel

hello to all



the fuel or veg oil needs to be tested but the problem is



money/ time / and the fact that all the oil is different, like this two food places use the same type of oil lets say canola (the good stuff). Place A cooks only chicken and uses it till its DARK and then changes it. place B uses it for cooking all types of frozen food but only uses it for 3 days and then changes it.



what oil would you want ?

what oil is better ?



would you test both oils or would you mix them and then test them.



I have seen people pass on oil that is very dark but take oil that was a lot of water in it.

I will use oil that is settled and heated and filtered color plays no role to me in making of the fuel. but testing the oil would be very hard to do why,its from 9 places all different types of oil all types of food cooked in it.

most of the test's that you will have are based on new oil not used oil I think if a collage is going to do tests on oil they want a product that will be close to the same all the time. if I took a sample to them and they tested it taking the normal time to do this I would bet you the oil would be long burnt by the time they are done. but new oil is held to a strict standard making testing easy.



I will have my FUEL tested but some one need's to step up and pay for it.



ANY TAKERS ?



cj hall

 

[FYarcho]

Well I am sorta with CJ on this one. I think there are a few things missing from the TDI post. I would have really liked to see more pics of the intake system. I would be willing to bet that the whole intake from the turbo to the engine would look pretty crappy. I am just shooting in the dark here. But Im thinking the problem started with the turbo. Even the guy said the shaft was loose When it was taken apart. So who knows for sure what got sucked into the engine. But I would be pretty sure based on what he was sying that the turbo was spewing oil into the intake which Is why we see all the black crap in there. So basically I am not convinced that this was a wvo poblem or somthing that just started with a bad turbo.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

The 1. 9L "ALH" TDI engines have a crankcase vent (from the valve cover) leading right into the turbo inlet (after the MAF sensor, of course... ).



So - unless you reroute these vapors (or vent them to atmosphere like I have always done with my TDIs... ) the turbo is eating oil vapor. This oil vapor goes through the turbo, intercooler and into the intake. If that wasn't so bad - get a load of this...



The 1. 9L "ALH" TDI engines also have a combination "anti-shudder valve" (All the ASV does is reduce the normal shake a diesel engine has when you shut it down... ) and EGR valve - right at the intake manifold. Now you're taking that nice oily vapor and combining it with EGR soot! This is a recipe for massive clogging in the intake, cylinder head passages and of course the intake valves.



The intake manifold on my old '98 NB TDI was about 75% clogged. I cleaned it out and it ran like a recently violated primate. This is a VERY notorious and easily solved issue. VW in their infinite wisdom made the intake manifold gasket reusable.



Not only do I vent my CCV vapors to atmosphere, but I also cranked back off on the EGR duty cycle using VAG-COM. In theory, it shouldn't get clogged up again.



I'm thinking the WVO fouled up the lube oil (he admitted to extended drain intervals... ) and this fouled up lube oil vapor ran through the turbo and combined with EGR soot to really clog the heck out of his intake, etc... . MORE than what would have normally happened with just running #2 diesel.



Bottom line: I'd venture to guess that there are a lot of TDI's out there with fouled up intake valves like that.



The turbo damage could be attributed to the fouled up lube oil as well - the turbos on these things are insanely tiny - so they spin like the dickens all the time... Inferior lubrication will eat a turbo in short order.



That's my $. 03 - adjusted for inflation, depreciation...



Beers,



Matt

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

hello to all



the fuel or veg oil needs to be tested but the problem is



money/ time / and the fact that all the oil is different, like this two food places use the same type of oil lets say canola (the good stuff). Place A cooks only chicken and uses it till its DARK and then changes it. place B uses it for cooking all types of frozen food but only uses it for 3 days and then changes it.



what oil would you want ?

what oil is better ?



would you test both oils or would you mix them and then test them.



I have seen people pass on oil that is very dark but take oil that was a lot of water in it.

I will use oil that is settled and heated and filtered color plays no role to me in making of the fuel. but testing the oil would be very hard to do why,its from 9 places all different types of oil all types of food cooked in it.

most of the test's that you will have are based on new oil not used oil I think if a collage is going to do tests on oil they want a product that will be close to the same all the time. if I took a sample to them and they tested it taking the normal time to do this I would bet you the oil would be long burnt by the time they are done. but new oil is held to a strict standard making testing easy.

I will have my FUEL tested but some one need's to step up and pay for it.



ANY TAKERS ?



cj hall

EXACTLY, and well put!



And also exactly why I decided to NOT become a "shadetree refiner/chemist" in my own backyard - some do it gladly, perhaps blindly - and will stand on their rooftops expounding the virtues of being their own refiners, and "beating the Arabs at their own game", but WAY too many raw materials variables to suit me!



Matt sez:

The 1. 9L "ALH" TDI engines have a crankcase vent (from the valve cover) leading right into the turbo inlet (after the MAF sensor, of course... ).



So - unless you reroute these vapors (or vent them to atmosphere like I have always done with my TDIs... ) the turbo is eating oil vapor. This oil vapor goes through the turbo, intercooler and into the intake. If that wasn't so bad - get a load of this...



The 1. 9L "ALH" TDI engines also have a combination "anti-shudder valve" (All the ASV does is reduce the normal shake a diesel engine has when you shut it down... ) and EGR valve - right at the intake manifold. Now you're taking that nice oily vapor and combining it with EGR soot! This is a recipe for massive clogging in the intake, cylinder head passages and of course the intake valves.



The intake manifold on my old '98 NB TDI was about 75% clogged. I cleaned it out and it ran like a recently violated primate. This is a VERY notorious and easily solved issue. VW in their infinite wisdom made the intake manifold gasket reusable.



Not only do I vent my CCV vapors to atmosphere, but I also cranked back off on the EGR duty cycle using VAG-COM. In theory, it shouldn't get clogged up again.



I'm thinking the WVO fouled up the lube oil (he admitted to extended drain intervals... ) and this fouled up lube oil vapor ran through the turbo and combined with EGR soot to really clog the heck out of his intake, etc... . MORE than what would have normally happened with just running #2 diesel.



Bottom line: I'd venture to guess that there are a lot of TDI's out there with fouled up intake valves like that.



The turbo damage could be attributed to the fouled up lube oil as well - the turbos on these things are insanely tiny - so they spin like the dickens all the time... Inferior lubrication will eat a turbo in short order.



That's my $. 03 - adjusted for inflation, depreciation...



Beers,



Matt

This info HAD been posted in this thread earlier, just prior to my own offered (and criticized!) theory as to "chunks" of hardened intake valve accumulation breaking off to damage both the engine cylinders and also the turbo vanes as the abrasive material passed thru the rapidly spinning blades - the vane erosion seems pretty obvious...



BUT, the poster of that earlier info deleted his info - glad Matt offered it again.



Does that mean the Cummins in our own trucks might suffer the same fate as the VW? Depends on the quality of the fuel, how much might find its way into the engine lube, and eventually be applied to other internal engine areas - but highly unlikely to occur at the same levels seen in that VW...



BUT, the variables of random WVO sources, and the same potential variables of the end fuel product very well are a likely result - will the long term fuel cost savings outweigh the potential hazards?



THAT'S for the backyard refiners/chemists to decide! :-laf:-laf

 

[cj hall]

Gary



Do you really think that the WVO broke the pistons after the intake valves got all gunked up from the waste veg oil blowby caused by the waste oil in the fuel system.



Are you running for office ??????



havent heard this much B. S. in the last 45 years from both partys. you just got my vote for king on this one, not sure of what!!



This is fine , This is your view but if you think that all the damage was from WVO I am sure then this is the problem because a person in office would not lie to the american public right???????????



GIVE ME A BREAK



the turbo sucked in something and the rest is history.

please dont try something new you might just learn something.

no wonder you have to have some one put fuel in your truck might get the wrong pump.



just my thoughts



cj hall

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Gary



Do you really think that the WVO broke the pistons after the intake valves got all gunked up from the waste veg oil blowby caused by the waste oil in the fuel system.



Are you running for office ??????



havent heard this much B. S. in the last 45 years from both partys. you just got my vote for king on this one, not sure of what!!



This is fine , This is your view but if you think that all the damage was from WVO I am sure then this is the problem because a person in office would not lie to the american public right???????????



GIVE ME A BREAK



the turbo sucked in something and the rest is history.

please dont try something new you might just learn something.

no wonder you have to have some one put fuel in your truck might get the wrong pump.



just my thoughts



cj hall

All that was very mature, well thought out and presented...





Feel better now? :-laf:-laf:-laf

 

[PRout]

And also exactly why I decided to NOT become a "shadetree refiner/chemist" in my own backyard - some do it gladly, perhaps blindly - and will stand on their rooftops expounding the virtues of being their own refiners, and "beating the Arabs at their own game", but WAY too many raw materials variables to suit me!

Same here. A friend at work and I have been doing the research on how to "hydrocrack" our own biodiesel for about a year now. We have read about every thread and tip, and watched the UTube "How to" videos, etc.

We both realize our limitations as being weak on chemistry knowledge even though high school kids are making it as science projects. Our ignorance could end up getting us hurt, or making a bad batch whatever.

My lessons learned come down to this.

A. ) Waste Veg Oil is basically not very good fuel to run in your expensive diesel. Too many variables as hammered at above. I would NOT even consider it.

B. ) Biodiesel is great fuel as long as you either know what your doing when you make it (and it has been washed & dried well), or you buy it at a reputable station.

For me its "B" but Ill buy it rather than blow myself up playing backyard Mr. Wizard.

My truck LOVES the stuff by the way. I do too. But plain filtered WVO - Never.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

YUP Phil, I'd LOVE to have local access to some good B20 for my truck - another thread on TDR points to a laboratory conducted fuel additive study, and a 2% bio mix VASTLY outperformed ALL the commercially available additives!

 

[PRout]

Yeah Gary, I hope you get to try some out soon. I kind of jumped right in and went probably about 75% bio on the first try (figuring on needing to change filters soon after). Didnt have any problem with filters. Found the motor was quieter and the idle went incredibly smooth within about 50 miles. Like the tach was stuck. . It hadnt done that in a year of so before. Plus it seems to smoothen out the added timing hammer/lopiness of the aggressive settings. Ended up running it for about 9 months on almost pure 99% all that time. Definitely quieter & smoother without the heavy exhaust smell. Wow, the stuff is amazingly more like an oil than a fuel too. Wierd. . But right, no more need for 2 stroke oil or whatever.

Lately have been running about 50%. Found that is a nice mix. You may not see a big difference with 20% but then again you might. . You will probably notice a lighter exhaust odor right away. . And your VP will appreciate you much more, especially since you installed it yourself from the beginning.

Night and day difference from WVO. Have seen some of the videos of people using it and that stuff is NASTY!

 

[PRout]

Oh! One drawback I have noticed. . It raised up the fuel pressure from 13. 5 psi to about 20! I think it is due to being heavier viscosity and the regulator bypass circuit in the fass isnt diverting as much "overpressured" fuel back to the tank. Thats why I went to 50% mix. Seems to have dropped pressure down to about 15-17. .

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I fully realize this will be instantly rejected and criticized by WVO users and supporters :-{} #@$%! , but here's some interesting info that is related to various issues presented in this thread:



http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/ema_svo.pdf



Here's a sample paragraph from that pointer:

Raw or refined vegetable oil, or recycled greases have significantly different and widely

varying properties that are not acceptable for use in modern diesel engines. For example, the

higher viscosity and chemical composition of unprocessed oils and fats have been shown to

cause problems in a number of areas: (i) piston ring sticking; (ii) injector and combustion

chamber deposits; (iii) fuel system deposits; (iv) reduced power; (v) reduced fuel economy and

(vi) increased exhaust emissions. Use of unprocessed oils or fats as neat fuels or blending stock

will lead to excessive fuel condensation and corresponding dilution of the engine's lubricating

oil that may result in sludge formation. Any or all of these conditions may result in reduced

engine life, increased maintenance costs, or catastrophic engine failure. More over, the problems

associated with the use of raw vegetable oil or animal fat may not become evident until a

significant amount of damage has occurred over an extended period.

And yes, I realize that SOME of the quoted comments refer to WVO products that are raw, and untreated - some also apply to treated WVO as well. And much of what has been covered in this thread should be viewed as a WARNING as to potential, perhaps remote, danger issues with WVO use, especially when that WVO was of poor and variable quality to start with, then not fully and properly treated before use as engine fuel.

 

[DJW]

Gary, I'v often wondered when some members say, that they use used engine oil in their fuel, one often reads that fuel, any fuel should be kept clean, thinking of the pumps injectors etc. one not only changes oil because it loses it's detergents, but also contains impurities picked up on the process of combustion, plus other wear and chemical changes from heat. From a fuel cost standpoint how much fuel does that replace, just 12 quarts on average,(what savings!) Perhaps if one wanted to economise perhaps they should use the Company's truck first, but check with the Company first. (good jobs can be hard to find at times)

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Gary, I'v often wondered when some members say, that they use used engine oil in their fuel, one often reads that fuel, any fuel should be kept clean, thinking of the pumps injectors etc. one not only changes oil because it loses it's detergents, but also contains impurities picked up on the process of combustion, plus other wear and chemical changes from heat. From a fuel cost standpoint how much fuel does that replace, just 12 quarts on average,(what savings!) Perhaps if one wanted to economise perhaps they should use the Company's truck first, but check with the Company first. (good jobs can be hard to find at times)

I have to agree on the use of used engine oil as fuel - as tempting as it is with fuel costing about $3 a gallon, and then draining and tossing 3 gallons of potential fuel...



Yeah, in the past I've run some thru my engine - but no more - my conscience simply won't allow me to subject my engine to the used lube in the name of "fuel saving" anymore.



YMMV

 

[DJW]

In Britain during the late 40s if asking for engine oil, one would be asked, "Vegetable or Mineral?" I forget if it was OK to blend which one with the other, the Vegetable Oil was considered superior, but not to be confused with Castor Oil, the Oil from the Castor Bean. Castor has a great burned smell for racing fans, could follow one to the Ends of the Earth, depending on one's sense of smell, days after. (a dead giveaway for a Court case) The Castor Oil used in the racing engines was claimed to be the only Oil able to stay on the cylinder wall during high heat. I believe the trade name Castrol was derived from the initial use of Castor Oil. One of the motor cycles I bought used, the owner gave me a bottle of Castor Oil as that was the oil he used in it. I remeber it being as thick as a very heavy VERY SLOW pouring of Treacle, I'm not familiar of the branded Castor Engine Oil sold at garages. Years ago I read in a motoring magazine, (pre detergent) where some would have a Wool type thread to be used as a wick, which was placed in a container of used oil to reclaim, and the capillary action would remove the oil and leave the contaminants. It did give detailed plans of the unit, but my thoughts were, the way it was discribed, the reclaimed oil would be contaminated by the surounding air as it was not totally enclosed, unless a cover was not mentioned. As it's said in the Auto World, "There's Nothing New!".

 

[JFaughn]

It wasn't too many yrs ago that you could get paraffin [ wax ] based oils , cheaper , used for old worn eng. , I've had a more than a few valve cover & intakes off V eng. , there was so much sludge in all the open areas that using a 3" putty knife to dig it out , was required .
But like stated before , once many believe something , theres no new info allowed , [ this is one of the aspects of belief - not willing to acknowledge new information - the mind has close for business ] .

 

[HoleshotHolset]

I fully realize this will be instantly rejected and criticized by WVO users and supporters :-{} #@$%! , but here's some interesting info that is related to various issues presented in this thread...

I'm not knocking that info as it contains true statements about what COULD happen to your engine, but you have to wonder how much of it is sensationalized. The biodiesel industry would really prefer to have folks buying WVO that has undergone transesterification (biodiesel) rather than just running WVO straight through their engines...

Beers,

Matt

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I'm not knocking that info as it contains true statements about what COULD happen to your engine, but you have to wonder how much of it is sensationalized. The biodiesel industry would really prefer to have folks buying WVO that has undergone transesterification (biodiesel) rather than just running WVO straight through their engines...



Beers,



Matt

Matt, personally, my own comments here, as well as what is seen in similar comments and supporting posts should be considered as eye-openers and pure WARNING statements as to what MIGHT happen if proper care in obtaining, processing and using WVO fuels is not observed. Along with that might also be added care in support engine maintenance in regards to oil and filter changes, especially in EGR equipped systems.



Some here have taken the abusive radical reactionary attitude that all things WVO are under attack, and that it's being claimed that use of WVO will ultimately and inevitably lead to premature catastrophic engine failure - which certainly is NOT true or even claimed to be!



The message for those using or planning WVO use is simply "Be aware, be careful, and take all recommended steps and precautions in WVO preparation and use" - and that's about it...

 

[HoleshotHolset]

The message for those using or planning WVO use is simply "Be aware, be careful, and take all recommended steps and precautions in WVO preparation and use" - and that's about it...

EXACTLY!

If you're not mechanically inclined and ill prepared to deal with some of the pitfalls, don't modify your vehicle or use non-traditional fuels.



Beers,



Matt