Fuel Gouge?-you Decide

[AMink]

I've been wondering how many more personal diesel vehicles are on the road now compared to 10 years ago. I'm sure it's a LOT! Just look at the number of diesel forums and magazines and how many CTD, PS, and DM trucks are out there now. In the same amount of time, no new refineries! I'm not making excuses because I still don't understand why it goes up so fast and down so slow, or why it costs more for winter blend, then costs more for regular blend in the spring. Just an observation.

 

[AKaiser]

One of several problems with ATF fluid is not enough dye to contaminate 30+ gallons of fuel to the color of red diesel. The amount of ATF needed to color diesel red is astronomical and most ATF fluids are synthetic and don't burn worth a cr@p.

You're both operating off erroneous assumptions about fuel dye and testing procedures. The dye in off road fuel is a very specific dye that takes a specific test to verify it. If you put ATF in the tank, that dye is NOT in ATF and THEY KNOW IT. BUSTED!!!

 

[JFaulkner]

You're both operating off erroneous assumptions about fuel dye and testing procedures. The dye in off road fuel is a very specific dye that takes a specific test to verify it. If you put ATF in the tank, that dye is NOT in ATF and THEY KNOW IT. BUSTED!!!

Agreed, but as I said before why give them a reason to dig deeper? If it's red they're gonna check it. It's a DIESEL engine, some of you should try running DIESEL FUEL in it. (almost like it's made for it, who'da thought) Leave the Automatic Transmission Fluid in the Automatic Transmission. If someone on here claimed that the blood from a black poodle increased your fuel milage some "donkey" would try it and another would swear it worked.

 

[AMink]

blood from a black poodle increased your fuel milage

I haven't tried the black poodle blood in the tank, but I do know that human blood on the engine (or suspension, or exhaust) doesn't do squat for mileage!:-laf

 

[RGardner]

Here is what burns me up, fuel is priced based on the futures market, but the actual price that the oil companies are paying for oil are $10 to $ 20 per barrel cheaper than the futures price! What does that translate into? Higher profits for the oil companies!

 

[JFaulkner]

Here is what burns me up, fuel is priced based on the futures market, but the actual price that the oil companies are paying for oil are $10 to $ 20 per barrel cheaper than the futures price! What does that translate into? Higher profits for the oil companies!

Yes but oil is not the only commodity that is done this way, it is just the only one that people notice. Think about it what product that you use on a daily has a more advertised price than gas/diesel? If milk jumped $1. 00 a gallon most people wouldn't even notice and I doubt the term "big milk" would be thrown around like "big oil". Lumber is done the same way, the price of products like plywood or OSB can more than double just because of speculation. But unless your building a house you wouldn't notice.



Also if the price of diesel goes up $. 15 everyone screams gouging, but in reality it only changes your bill less than $5. 00 on average. Now if your finances are completely ruined by an increase of less than $5. 00 you probably are living above your means and need to re-evaluate your expences. (not buying your lunch one day will counteract that)

 

[RGardner]

All depends upon how much you drive or use diesel in your business. Some can pass on the higher cost of fuel to consumers but agriculture cannot!

 

[JFaulkner]

All depends upon how much you drive or use diesel in your business. Some can pass on the higher cost of fuel to consumers but agriculture cannot!

No offence but farmers and money is a hot topic with me. I can't think of a profession out there that gets more govmt. handouts than farmers. I know I know it's in the interest of cheap food but the term "excessive" comes to mind. Also a farmer won't use a fraction of the fuel I use and I don't get a subsidy, however I don't whine about it. Authough I don't blame them I'd take it too, I'd just act like an adult about it.



Next time you hear a farmer complain about the crop prices get their name and go here and you can find out how much "free" money they got from the gov't. Granted there are those out there that are acutally struggling but for the most part it's BS. (p. s. most of my family are farmers so yes I do know what I'm talking about) Just one farm here where I live got $2,341,703, over a 10 yr span, that's roughly 234k per year for a dad and 2 of his sons in extra money. IMO that should help cover the fuel.

 

[McLaughlin]

No offence but farmers and money is a hot topic with me. I can't think of a profession out there that gets more govmt. handouts than farmers. I know I know it's in the interest of cheap food but the term "excessive" comes to mind.

What you say is true but a lot of the government funds go to the larger farmers. The small farms have a tough time of it. About all they get is CRP and that is as a result of pulling land out of the production cycle (which I think is a good idea). The other thing that hurts farmers (the smaller farmers in particular as they often can't store the crop until prices are higher) is they have little control over the price of their product. Oil producers seem to have a lot more control of the price of their product.



Personally, I don't think the gas stations are making that much on gas due to competition and it is the exception when they manage to gouge the public and get away with it. I suspect the majority of the profits are in the oil company refinery and distribution. There are so many steps in the process that small increases in each step yield huge profits for companies that control the refinery and distribution channels.

 

[RGardner]

So how much fuel do you use? I know of many farmers that will use upwards of 300 gal of diesel per day. I know many many many farmers and none, I repeat none are getting rich off of the government dollars. You think that big oil doesn't get government subsidies in the form of tax breaks, etc. Lots of industry gets government handout in one form or another.

 

[JFaulkner]

So how much fuel do you use? I know of many farmers that will use upwards of 300 gal of diesel per day. I know many many many farmers and none, I repeat none are getting rich off of the government dollars. You think that big oil doesn't get government subsidies in the form of tax breaks, etc. Lots of industry gets government handout in one form or another.

Roughly 2k gallons a week, which is a small drop in the bucket to what others will use. (none of which are those small poor farmers you speak of) Tax breaks are a GOOD idea. Everyone needs to keep in mind corporations DO NOT PAY TAXES!!!! Certain politicians want to tax the profits of corporations. (windfall tax) Again corporations DON'T PAY TAXES they pass them on to the consumer, so by giving them a tax break your helping yourself. Your delusional if you think that a company isn't going to add the higher taxes to the price of their product.

Regardless of what you like to believe the price of fuel is supply and demand. The price of any product is based on what the market will support. For example I have a friend who's a salesman at a local Ford dealership. He has no problem selling the new powerstrokes at upwards of $50k each, now is that "price gouging"? Same as fuel, if people are willing to pay the current price then there is no reason for it to change. But I guess according to you he should lower the price just out of the goodness of his heart even though he can't keep them on the lot. Don't give me the whole "but people don't have a choice but to buy fuel" neither do I so you cut back as much as you can and try to save in other ways. So unless your a woman or a 2yr old crying and stomping your feet doesn't change anything.

 

[RGardner]

You personally use 2k of fuel per week or does your company?

 

[DBentley]

Was 2. 73 for most of aug here in bridgewater but last week 2. 99

And the price of beer is killing me to

Heck I will keep buying both as long as i can. If I had to give one up it will be diesel .

 

[RGardner]

LOL, We all have our vices! you just have to buy beer in the bigger pack to save money! Like that will help!

 

[tgordon]

JFaulkner, I am woundering what your industry is that you go through that much fuel? I find what you say interesting as I am willin gto bet that you are a price maker not a price taker as agriculture is. I also find it hard to belive that you are that close to agriculture if you cannot understand why the larger farms get more money. You invest more, take more risk, and stand to loose more. When somebody farming 1,000 acres looses $10,000 the guy farming 10,000 looses $100,000. If booth are operated by a family, father and 2 sons in your example, why does the larger farmer not deserve the money? How many millions of dollars are thrown at the aerospace industry or auto as bailouts? Plus what rock have you been hiding under, in the last coupl eof years I have not heard much about subsidies, but a bunch about the price of food and how everbody is going to starve with how expensive all the food is, but before everybody was complaining like you about all the subsidy payments to farmers.



For everybody who has trouble with the profits shown by the oil companies do some basic economic calculations. Most investors will not look at anything with less than a 13-14% return on investment. So using 10% and the 40 billion profit stated earlier that comes to be 4 billion in investment. This includes inventory, processing facilities, distribution, etc. For anybody who thinks that is exagerated feel free to go out build your own processing facility and join in the big money.

 

[JFaulkner]

JFaulkner, I am woundering what your industry is that you go through that much fuel? I find what you say interesting as I am willin gto bet that you are a price maker not a price taker as agriculture is. I also find it hard to belive that you are that close to agriculture if you cannot understand why the larger farms get more money. You invest more, take more risk, and stand to loose more. When somebody farming 1,000 acres looses $10,000 the guy farming 10,000 looses $100,000. If booth are operated by a family, father and 2 sons in your example, why does the larger farmer not deserve the money? How many millions of dollars are thrown at the aerospace industry or auto as bailouts? Plus what rock have you been hiding under, in the last coupl eof years I have not heard much about subsidies, but a bunch about the price of food and how everbody is going to starve with how expensive all the food is, but before everybody was complaining like you about all the subsidy payments to farmers.

Ok to address some of your points. The industry I'm in is transportation. A small trucking company to be exact. Now while a few of our trucks are operating under a contract with a set rate the others are hauling whatever pays the best. Some pay better than others but the fuel is the same regardless. As far as being close to agriculture I don't know how much closer I could get. We used to have 9 trucks dedicated to nothing but grain, and were one of the first licensed agricultural commodity handlers in Ohio. (back when the only people who could sell to companies like Cargill were licensed grain dealers and have since dropped the license due to it being basically worthless). We personally farm 80 acres for my grandma just because we wanted to play farmer. (she recieved $18,029. 87 from 95-05 on those 80 acres) I also have a few uncles that farm, one cousin works for the department of agriculture, while the other works at a local Co-op (along with her husband who sells farm chemicals) My GF works there as well.



As far as the subsidies go I understand the math as to why the larger farms get the most money. The problem I have with the whole thing is its not widely known just how much each of them receive. I just can't stand hearing the "poor farmer" speech all while some are getting millions in free handouts that other small businesses don't get. Everyone that starts a business weather it be a farm or a restaurant takes a risk. However if the business is successful they also reap the benefits. I don't believe anyone should get a taxpayer-funded bailout so your aerospace or automotive examples are worthless. IMO if you can't keep your business running then get out of the way and let someone else run it. If you’re not a farmer that complains then I'm not talking about you. If I was a farmer I'd sign up for the handouts, and I understand they're in the interest of "cheap food". But don't tell me how hard the fuel prices have been on you while driving your $50k dollar pickup and getting a gov't check while other businesses that also use the same fuel don't receive the handouts. "Gee with these high fuel prices what will the poor farmers do" I'll tell you what they'll do, they'll write the check like the rest of us.



P. S. NOBODY starves to death in America.



Also it's funny you mention that "You invest more, take more risk, and stand to loose more. " This concept is completely over everyone’s head that feels that the oil companies are gouging. You spend billions of dollars searching for oil reserves, drilling countless wells that come up dry and when you make an average of about 9. 8 cents of profit for every dollar, your accused of gouging. While your bank is making almost 16 cents with no public outcry.

 

[RGardner]

JFaulkner, you makes several good point in your argument, but I don't agree with all of them. In my part of the world there is little to no money spent on exploration costs, the land was leased years ago for little to nothing. The percentage of dry holes is less than most companies would like you to believe. With todays technologies, drilling is a way more exact science than in years past.



Concerning agriculture, again in our area the government payments have been the only profit most farmers have shown for several years, this year things will be better but still not good. Most farmers don't drive a 50k p/u may have a 125k combine and tractor along with expensive implements to go along with them. And those are not new prices. As to not knowing how much each farmer receives in government payments, do you think that it should be public record for each and every type of government payment or incentive that people receive? How about the earned income credit or child tax credits that the government is giving to individuals? Should companies have to disclose how much money they saved by utilizing the various tax breaks that are available to them? And you could be closer to agriculture by trying to make your living at it. You yourself said that you would take the government payments if they were available to you. To survive in the farming business today, you have to farm the government for all it is worth. As far as complaining about the price of fuel, I don't hear farmers griping about the cost of fuel more than any other group of people. Some large companies may well receive very large government payment but they are just playing by the rules of the game as set by the dept of ag and the congress.

 

[JFaulkner]

JFaulkner, you makes several good point in your argument, but I don't agree with all of them. In my part of the world there is little to no money spent on exploration costs, the land was leased years ago for little to nothing. The percentage of dry holes is less than most companies would like you to believe. With todays technologies, drilling is a way more exact science than in years past.



Concerning agriculture, again in our area the government payments have been the only profit most farmers have shown for several years, this year things will be better but still not good. Most farmers don't drive a 50k p/u may have a 125k combine and tractor along with expensive implements to go along with them. And those are not new prices. As to not knowing how much each farmer receives in government payments, do you think that it should be public record for each and every type of government payment or incentive that people receive? How about the earned income credit or child tax credits that the government is giving to individuals? Should companies have to disclose how much money they saved by utilizing the various tax breaks that are available to them? And you could be closer to agriculture by trying to make your living at it. You yourself said that you would take the government payments if they were available to you. To survive in the farming business today, you have to farm the government for all it is worth. As far as complaining about the price of fuel, I don't hear farmers griping about the cost of fuel more than any other group of people. Some large companies may well receive very large government payment but they are just playing by the rules of the game as set by the dept of ag and the congress.

The drilling I was referring to was offshore and whether it be drilling test holes or using technology to explore it still costs money and is still a risk. A risk that apparently to some they shouldn't be aloud to make a profit on.



Some farmers I know will admit that they only farm to break even, the profit comes from other business ventures (seed or chemical sales ect... . )or the govt checks. Now think about that, how bad you could run your business if it didn't need to make a profit. A prime example of this is Amtrak. They only survive due to government handouts and the service is horrible.



I have no problem with someone keeping a list of where my tax dollars go, do you? I tend to have a problem with corporations such as John Deere, Cargill, Caterpillar or Ted Turner receiving farm welfare and EWG.org lists those as well as local farmers all receiving large amounts of our money. Personally it just leave a bad taste in my mouth when some of those same people want some sympathy because their expenses went up.



Your the one that started the whole agriculture discussion on here. In a previous post you said "Some can pass on the higher cost of fuel to consumers but agriculture cannot!" As if every other business can simply jack up the prices to compensate for higher fuel costs except for those poor farmers. I will because I'm not working for free. I can sit at home and go broke I don't need to go to work to do it.

 

[RGardner]

You obviously have a problem with farmers, I don't know why but you do. Most farmers are trying there very best to make a living off the farm and have had a hard time doing it over the past several years. Farming is one of the few businesses that is a you take what I give you for your product, but you have to pay what ever the going rate is for your expenses. Yes I did start the ag conversation here but you are the one that started bashing the american farmer.



I am not talking about a list of where your tax dollars go, I am talking about a list that shows your refund if it is due to government policies. There is a very very big difference between the two.

 

[JFaulkner]

You obviously have a problem with farmers, I don't know why but you do. Most farmers are trying there very best to make a living off the farm and have had a hard time doing it over the past several years. Farming is one of the few businesses that is a you take what I give you for your product, but you have to pay what ever the going rate is for your expenses. Yes I did start the ag conversation here but you are the one that started bashing the american farmer.



I am not talking about a list of where your tax dollars go, I am talking about a list that shows your refund if it is due to government policies. There is a very very big difference between the two.

Aparently you don't read before you post because I said "If you’re not a farmer that complains then I'm not talking about you". I have a problem with crybabies, so if you just happen to cry and farm then your right I have a problem with you. But if your a farmer and act like other business owners you suck it up and find a way to make it work then congratulations your a successfull American business owner. But don't tell me how hard you have it when you recieve income others do not. (not to mention burning the cheaper fuel)