Black oil SOONER, What's the reason now?

[Motorhead]

When I drove my old VW Dasher Diesel wagon, The oil would be coal black in 50 miles. Same with my old 240D Mercedes.

My 01. 5 Dodge would not get very black at all when It was ready for an oil change and it had MODS!

So why with 5 event per cycle injection is the oil in my '07, 5. 9 getting black with only 2,000 miles on it?

I would think that BLACK OIL is caused by ring leakage, yet, I have read that this is "Status Quo" for our newer trucks.

OK... ... So What Gives???

 

[cerberusiam]

So why with 5 event per cycle injection is the oil in my '07, 5. 9 getting black with only 2,000 miles on it??

Not quite sure what you mean here, 5 events? AFAIK, the 5. 9 still only has 3 event injection and the 3rd event is only used under hard acceleration.



The reason for the black oil is simple, emissions. Same as any other diesel that uses EGR, the Cummins in-cylinder EGR dumps soot back into the oil and it turns black almost immediately.

 

[Motorhead]

My 5. 9 doesn't have EGR

 

[RMalone]

Its not just the EGR, the Common rails are simply set up to trap soot in the oil. Thats one reason for the ci-4 rateing on the oil, it's also one reason why Cummins didn't need to use EGR to meet 2004 emissions. I have an 04. 5, no EGR, and my oil is black as coal as soon as I start the motor and shut it down after an oil change. The truck has always been that way modded or not.

 

[cerberusiam]

My 5. 9 doesn't have EGR

Yes, it does. Its how the soot gets back into the oil





The B engine design from 04. 5 up use exhaust gas recirc to meet emissions, the earlier CR engines also to a lesser extent. Its built into the design of engine.

 

[cerberusiam]

Its not just the EGR, the Common rails are simply set up to trap soot in the oil.

The only way you get soot in the oil is recirculating unburned fuel into the combustion event. This is due to valve timing/overlaps, drive pressure to boost ratio, and timing of injection events. There is nothing else in the desgin to contribute the soot.

 

[Flyfishing]

Different thread same subject... You get soot, and other combustion byproducts from ring blowby initially, when this is recirculated the soot levels increase in the oil...





https://www.turbodieselregister.com...1535-amsoil-two-micron-bypass-filter-kit.html



Regards, Richard

 

[brods]

The only way you get soot in the oil is recirculating unburned fuel into the combustion event. This is due to valve timing/overlaps, drive pressure to boost ratio, and timing of injection events. There is nothing else in the desgin to contribute the soot.

Cummins Every Time - Dodge Ram - 610 Turbo Diesel - Reliability And Durability

In-cylinder combustion and diesel oxidation catalyst solution requires no exhaust gas circulation components.

This comes down to the definition of egr. So technically it is not recirculating the exhaust gas (EGR) as we normally think of it, but the net effect is the same dilution of the intake charge with inert gas, yes?

 

[Missouri Mule]

The reason oil should be turning balck sooner is the additives in the oil. They put more or different additives in the oil to absorb soot(more soot).

 

[cerberusiam]

This comes down to the definition of egr. So technically it is not recirculating the exhaust gas (EGR) as we normally think of it, but the net effect is the same dilution of the intake charge with inert gas, yes?

Exactly right! Where in the definition of Exhaust Gas Recirculation does it say anything about vlaves, piping, etc? It is the simplest form of EGR; include an oxygen depleted mixture with the incoming charge to cool the combustion event and limit NOX emissions. Engine makers have been doing this since 1968 when the first emisssions standards were put into effect.



Retard the injection timing and fire the main event after TDC, add a 3rd event that fires way late in the cycle, open the exhaust valve later in the cycle and hold it open more when the intake cycle starts, add a turbo that has boost to drive pressures at 1 to 1. 2 - 2. 0, and you have a functional in-cylinder EGR system that is reliable, simple, and meets the needs. :-laf



The visible by-products of this design are oil that gets dirty faster and visible soot when you hammer it and blow the CAT out. On the other hand, it gives us 325 HP 610 TQ 50 state qualified engine and a TQ peak that runs from 1600 to 2900 rpm's stock. IMO, acceptable trade off with a little creative engineering.



Truly, the 07 5. 9 is the end of the diesel muscle truck era.

 

[cerberusiam]

The reason oil should be turning balck sooner is the additives in the oil. They put more or different additives in the oil to absorb soot(more soot).

Run the same oil in 12V and a CR engine then compare them, 12V will ALWAYS be cleaner at 5000 miles than the CR at 5 miles.

 

[RMalone]

Okay I see what you guys are saying, with my 04. 5 you see a sort of "in-cylinder" EGR, but not the classic type of EGR where exhaust gasses are piped in via a valve. Yes??
And I would agree that the average 12valve will have less soot in the oil at 5kmi than a common rail with 20seconds, all you need do is look at the two of them.

I disagree that the 07 5. 9 is the end of the muscle diesel era. Give it a little time and people will be ripping the emissions equipment and reprograming the ECM for max power. Such activities will become more difficult, but it will happen. Look at how long it took to get the 3rd gens up to the power levels of the 12valves. Now many of the highest hp Cummins are 3rd gens. As long as these engines burn oil someone will find a way to turn them into "raped apes".

 

[cerberusiam]

I disagree that the 07 5. 9 is the end of the muscle diesel era. Give it a little time and people will be ripping the emissions equipment and reprograming the ECM for max power.

It is the end as far as a legal streetable vehicle will be concerned. In most places you will not be able to register or license a vehicle that has the emissions equipment removed. Its coming. #@$%!



The 5. 9 is the last of the hotrod diesels that could easily be modified to generates huge power gains without major changes. The design of the 6. 7 is not going to lend itself as well to large power gains without problems.

 

[jimnance]

Run the same oil in 12V and a CR engine then compare them, 12V will ALWAYS be cleaner at 5000 miles than the CR at 5 miles.

That may explain why my '05 with an Edge Attitude gets dirty, but perhaps not as much as some report. I believe the Edge advances the timing of the fuel delivery event when it's "turned up".



I suppose to fully cure the problem you'd need to install an aftermarket cam that would reduce the overlap. Now it all makes sense.



I wonder if an aftermarket cam tuned for economy could significantly improve economy when using it in conjunction with an Edge Attitude on level 1 (economy)?