2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission dana 80 powertraxxs locker ??

[timbo]

Is anyone out there running a powertraxxs that fits in the open carrier? How strong are they?

 

[SRath]

Funny you should ask. My factory D80 limited slip is nothing but "slip". It has never in the 8 or 9 years I've owned it turned both rear wheels at once. Miserable junk.



So yesterday, I bought a used (less than 500 miles) Powertrax unit. Still has the original box and paperwork.



I wanted a Detroit Locker. But getting any good, specific info on converting the D70HD Detroit to use in the D80 has eluded me. Even here on TDR.



The detroit would also require me to remove the entire rear axle and take it to a shop to have the thing setup and installed. I can't find any local shop willing to do gear setups on the vehicle.



I got the Powertrax for less than half price and can install it myself. Supposedly, it will even install in "most" factory limited slip carriers. We'll soon find out... I had to move quickly on it and I should have removed a rear wheel and axle shaft to make sure, but I'm counting on my D80 being 35 spline. That's another of those questions you will find more confusion than specific answers for here on TDR or anywhere else.



The previous owner removed it because he carries a heavy slide-in camper and tows a boat and felt it was too aggressive for his needs. I like that.



It appears to function and be built very much like a Detroit and is made of some material 6 or 7 times stronger than titanium the maker claims. The sheer beef of the D80 makes a whole new stronger carrier unecessary, just like the Detroit is a "drop-in" unit for the GM 10 1/2 inch corporate 14 bolt rearend.



Another good thing, is that it is easily removed and returned to stock if I don't like it.



I recently also bought a Powerlock limited slip for the Dana 60 front axle in my Chevy K30. If I like it, I'll get one for the Dodge D60, too. Then maybe this Dodge won't be such a helpless weanie offroad.



Go to (click here>) POWERTRAX BY RICHMOND VIDEO DEMOS and check out the second video clip. It shows a Ford in 4wd with open diffs, a Dodge in 4wd with limited slips in both ends, and an old Ford 2wd pickup with a Powertrax all simply driving the length of a section of conveyer rollers with one side of the pickup on the rollers. You will be amazed how worthless the 4wd, double-limited-slip Dodge is. Then watch the humble locked-rear Ford 2wd. Great video!

 

[Bunyan]

IT is to my understanding that you need an open diff to use the powertrax.

 

[Alphacowboy]

The factory limited slip isnt that loose. It comes pretty loose from the factory, but in a matter of an hour you can reconfigure the clutch disks and you can get it pretty darn stiff. My D80 after replacing my damaged spiders, I replaced and reconfigured the clutches, and WOW, it was like having a welded rear at first. It had softened up some over time, but that makes a HUGE difference.

 

[SRath]

But how long does it last before the clutches wear out again? Where does all that clutch lining material go and how good is it or the friction-adding additive it requires for your differential and wheel bearings?



Also, as the video demonstrates, a limited slip, or even two, is simply no match for even one locker. The roller track is about the equivilent of having a wheel in the air, or on ice, or in deep goo or snow. The limited slip will let you down when you need it most.



I have always said I could go places in 2wd in my old '75 Detroit-lockered Chevy K20 that my buddies couldn't go in 4wd and that my Dodge won't go in 4wd either. That video demonstrates exactly why that is true. In 4wd, the old Chevy was at least a true-3-wheel-drive and very capable offroad. I miss that very much and don't believe just rebuilding the limited slip will get me back to that capability. Once you have used a locker offroad, you won't want anything else. It makes as big a difference as 4wd makes over 2wd with open diffs; maybe bigger.



Also, I took the information about it fitting most limited slip factory diffs right off that same Powertrax website. But like I said, we'll just have to wait and see...

 

[Bunyan]

I also read here or on another forum, that if you use to much friction modifier it will cause it to slip. I'm not sure but, will use a bit less, next lube change. My 99 acted like a locker. It was nice. It is truly amazing what can be accomplished when you have complete lock up in the rear. When I replace the front axles, eliminating the two peice and cad system I will put in some type of locker in the front. If not, then a tight limited-slip.

 

[EKlem]

I ran a powertrax for about 15k miles if I remember correctly. It did exactly what it was designed to do. It is a locker so it has the manners of one but if you are okay with that, they are great. When I pulled it out, it showed very little wear. I don't have an insanely powerful truck and I don't do anything that would be particularly hard on it like sledpulling but from my experiences, it seemed quite strong. Mine has been sitting on the shelf for two years now because my use had changed and I wanted the better manners of an open diff. It is a decent product but you need to accept what having a locker means.

One note on the powertrax. It is advertised that you don't have to pull your carrier but you actually do(at least with a 3. 55) since it won't fit by the ring gear.

 

[SRath]

EKlem,

Can you remember how many splines your Dana 80 had?



Did your's come with a factory limited slip or an open diff? (Will the Powertrax really fit the factory lsd carrier?)



We have the same trucks, so I would hope your experience will also apply to mine.



The guy I bought the Powertrax from said the same thing: You need to pull the entire carrier for the install.



Thanks for the info!

 

[EKlem]

I am pretty sure that my truck has a 35 spline rear. I actually have two powertrax sitting on the shelf that I need to get around to selling, one with the 35 spline and one with the 37 spline. I don't know exactly what year they went to a 37 spline but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out. SRath, if you are worried about whether you have the powertrax for the right axle, there is an ID tag between two of the bolts on the differential cover that can be used to identify which one you have. I suppose you could also pull an axle shaft and see whether it fits the powertrax before opening everything up.

My truck had an open carrier when I started and that is what I went back to. I do not know the answer to whether the carrier is the same or not for a LS rear.

Aside from having to muscle the carrier out and down to the ground, pulling it to do the install isn't bad at all. All told, I was able to pull the axle shafts and have the carrier out and the ring gear off in probably half an hour using only hand tools so it isn't that bad.

 

[AndyMan]

I'd like to keep up with this thread. My D80 LS is shot. I've been investigating a Detroit, b/c it's supposed to have improved street manners (over the older models of Detroits. ). I can handle the noise and the way some lockers act, but I can't abide by the increase in tire wear they cause.

I looked into getting a clutch pack rebuild kit for my rig, but it looks like it's going to be over $200. IMHO, that's just too much to justify for a LS rebuild kit.

If the powertrax works out, I may go that route. I understand that you got a great deal, but if I have to buy one at retail, I may just go ahead with the detroit as the price difference is not that significant.

I'm at a real loss as to what to do with my rear axle, so I encourage you all to keep up the flow of information.

Thanks,
Andy

 

[hammersley]

Can these be run on both front and rear - ON THE ROAD???

I have wondered what this means...



"..... had changed and I wanted the better manners of an open diff. It is a decent product but you need to accept what having a locker means. "





For example do they always want to go straight ahead... ... ... does it make driving a pain????

 

[SRath]

I have never had a bad experience in a full -size pickup with a rear locker. That includes on and off road and ice and snow and mud. You forget it's even there until you find yourself going where your LSD and open diff buddies cannot.



It may be different on a lighter, short wheel based vehicle like a Jeep. I don't know about that.



I had no noticeable difference in tire wear from front to rear, either. Reading what some of these guys say makes you think that even rear lockers are for strictly offroad. NOT TRUE!



MANY, MANY thousands of GM pickups came factory with Eaton Gov Lok lockers. When was the last time you heard of a safety issue or recall or problem with them? Detroit Lockers first gained their fame in street-driven, lightweight, short wheel based muscle cars!



I can see a limited slip for the front axle, but it's a waste of money in the rear. I say go locker or don't bother. One wheel in the air or on slick stuff and it's all over. Watch that Powertrax video if you don't believe that.

 

[AFoulk]

Srath, what kind of lockers do you have experience running? My limited slip is shot as well and I'm trying to decide what to do if restacking the discs doesn't work. I'd like a locker, but I don't wanna have to even worry about it in the snow. I don't know if ARB makes one for the dana80, that would be the way to go, but they also ain't cheap.

 

[Lightman]

The eaton gov lok is a unique design it is different than a standard type locker. It is a cross between a limited slip and a locker it doesnt lock until one wheel is spining a certain rpm faster than the other.



The powertrax in my opinion stinks. It might be alright close to stock horsepower but at my power level it is starting to have problems after 20k miles. It also noticeably increased tire wear.

 

[EKlem]

I have wondered what this means...



"..... had changed and I wanted the better manners of an open diff. It is a decent product but you need to accept what having a locker means. "





For example do they always want to go straight ahead... ... ... does it make driving a pain????

When I had my powertrax, it wasn't noticeable at all when going straight down the road. The only thing that was noticeable was that the tire wear increased slightly. When I had a detroit in 3/4 ton chevy, it hardly increased tire wear but the powertrax did cause the tires to wear out in 30k miles instead of 50k.



Maneuvering was when I really noticed the locker. You could hear it disengage although I never noticed any signs of wear when I took it out. If it disengaged with any throttle at all, the bang was pretty loud and the truck lurched. If I had enough power on and was already turning, it couldn't disengage and the rear end would hop violently. If you are doing a lot of maneuvering under load on good traction surfaces, I would not recommend a product like the powertrax.



The other problem area with any locker is snow and sometimes other loose surfaces. The rear end will want to come around on you a lot more. I actually found this to be a lot more fun than problematic. The real problem comes when you drive on a side slope. With a locker, once you start spinning, your rear end will swing downhill. With an open differential, since only one tire is spinning, the rear end won't slide. If you don't run into a side slope often, then a locker is not an issue. Some people complain that with a locker, the vehicle only wants to go straight and won't turn but I haven't run into this on either of the two fullsize trucks that I have had them in. This may be due to the fact the the front end is so much heavier or that it is a long wheelbase but I don't see it as a problem on our trucks.



As pointed out above, there is nothing like a locker if you need to go places. Lockers distribute the power to the two wheels based on the amount of traction they have whereas an open diff only puts power to the wheel with the least traction. Lockers are great if you regularly experience conditions that require them but I have seen them on way too many trucks that never see these types of situations.

 

[SRath]

EKlem points out a good thing to know about lockers. You must learn to use your power carefully on side slopes, which are good to avoid traversing sideways, anyway. Lockers are terrific for traction, but spinning them leaves no "anchor point" from the dead wheel. Don't spin, and the locker will help you. Spin, and it will slide your rear downhill. Chances are, on a slippery side slope, you will end up sliding your rearend downhill anyway regardless of locked or not. The really awesome trail drivers know how to modulate their power and it is fun to watch. They would sooner be caught with a fat girl and no pants than with no locker.



I don't know about the GovLok only kicking in when one wheel hits a certain spin speed. You would feel that, I think (wham!) unless it is an extremely low spin threshold. Mine acted locked at all times until I cornered. It left real nice dual burnouts when I romped on it! The truck would pull to one side then if the tire air pressure was not exactly the same, too, so that indicates both wheels were always pulling equally in a straight line.



Going from many years in trucks with lockers to this Dodge with a limited slip leaves no doubt I want a locker in my rear axle asap. I do not like getting stuck, and I have been stuck in the Dodge twice in extremely ridiculous (easy) situations that a locker would have laughed at.



The most frustrating was finding a narrow washout under the snow while hunting and having one front wheel and one rear wheel momentarily not touching anything since I had hit it at an angle, which is how I would want to cross such a thing if I had done it on purpose. Try as I might to use the brake to get the LSD to engage, it would do nothing but spin one wheel; the one in the air, just like the open diff up front.



I only needed to go another foot or so, but the Dodge was utterly helpless and dead in it's tracks even with the LSD. It would have been a non-event with a rear locker. My nephew still thinks his Ford is something real special for pulling my Dodge two lousy feet...



The other time I was just plowing snow into a huge pile in a Shopko parking lot. I drove a little too far up the pile and wound up with a lot of snow under both front wheels and just a little snow under one rear wheel. The other rear wheel sat on relatively clean pavement and did nothing, even with the LSD. That was all she wrote... Again, I only needed to go a foot or two backwards, but I was done. What a joke... It would not have happened with a rear locker.



Just a rear locker alone will give you true 3-wheel drive and your truck will do things effortlessly that it never could otherwise. It will spoil you like it did me and that will get you stuck when you get in a non-locked truck and expect it to drive like your locked one.



Noise? Tire wear? The other "problems"? I simply did not notice those things with the lockered pickups I had and would happily trade them for driving out of (most) everything I drive into even if I did.

 

[hammersley]

OK - which LOCKER do you get ....

I mean what is the best... ... some appear to be almost "automatic" while others you must engage... ... . with air or electric... ...

 

[EKlem]

I mean what is the best... ... some appear to be almost "automatic" while others you must engage... ... . with air or electric... ...

The best lockers are selectable ones like an ARB or some form of an electric locker. The problem with these is that they are considerably more expensive and are more prone to failure than a good old detroit locker. The reason that they are so great is that they have all the streetability of an open diff but the go anywhere ability of a locker. My old chevy used to have an electric locker in the front and a detroit in the rear and that front locker was simply awesome to have.



It would be interesting to see a payback calculation for buying an ARB locker over something like a powertrax based on less tire wear and better fuel economy. Unfortunately, it would probably be on the order of 100k or more miles.

 

[KAlder]

How do you re-arrange the clutches in the factory LSD?

I have heard of restacking or rearranging but have never heard an explanation.

 

[SRath]

EKlem: My old chevy used to have an electric locker in the front and a detroit in the rear and that front locker was simply awesome to have.



Was that the Electrax or the Eaton electric locker (the only two I know of)? That Electrax, created by the same folks who made Detroit Lockers, (who, I understand, have now been bought out by Eaton), seems to have a theoretical advantage:



It is supposedly like a Power Lock limited slip when disengaged, and then goes to fully locked when you hit the switch. This is opposed to being either totally open or totally locked like the Eaton electric unit. The thing I like about that concept is that it may help keep you out of trouble in the first place by not losing your momentum (bad thing to do in mud) if you wait too long to go fully locked. It might also give additional traction in situations where you need to steer more than a full locker would allow, like in the timber.



As far as selectable lockers go, I like the idea of the solid, no-nonsense manual engagement of the OX Locker. Much like the PosiLock cable device which many replace their CAD system with. I'm old school and believe in the fewest moving parts possible for reliability, and am especially dubious about anything electronic, vacuum or air operated, etc. I have never tried any ARB, OX, or electric locker, but my brother has an OX at each end of his custom, over-built CJ-8 Scrambler, and he swears by them. No fragile wires or air lines to rely on.



Your positive experience with your electric locker makes me curious just which one you had? I don't know what to expect now that Eaton owns both designs (besides the @ $100 per unit higher prices already seen on Detroit Lockers). Do you think they will drop one model in favor of the other?