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3rd party objective test of Smarty's "undetectable claim"
- Thread starter JasonCzerak
- Start Date
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While we are still in the 'highjacked' mode awaiting some feedback from Jason . .
If key counts add up when you do not start the engine, this number could get real interesting when you have someoene like me who uses the valet mode frequently. It takes 3 key on/offs to get into the valet mode disabling the alarm, and again 3 key on/offs to return to the active factory alarm system. I wonder HOW that would play out if the counts matter in all this?
If you read my sig, I have gauges, modded air intake, ME pipe - does that mean that someone would ASSUME I also have some kind of programmer installed as well? The fact is, I have NO programmer, with exception of the mods listed, my engine is stock. It would be a truly foolish person to assume mods mean programmers. I tow a lot, ha concerns about EGT's, fuel pressures, rail pressure, etc - I installed things for more information and better flowing breathing/exhaust trying to improve on fuel mileage and drivability at the altitudes where I live.
Didn't Jason say he was going to be making that trip in February on one of his posts?
CD
If key counts add up when you do not start the engine, this number could get real interesting when you have someoene like me who uses the valet mode frequently. It takes 3 key on/offs to get into the valet mode disabling the alarm, and again 3 key on/offs to return to the active factory alarm system. I wonder HOW that would play out if the counts matter in all this?
If you read my sig, I have gauges, modded air intake, ME pipe - does that mean that someone would ASSUME I also have some kind of programmer installed as well? The fact is, I have NO programmer, with exception of the mods listed, my engine is stock. It would be a truly foolish person to assume mods mean programmers. I tow a lot, ha concerns about EGT's, fuel pressures, rail pressure, etc - I installed things for more information and better flowing breathing/exhaust trying to improve on fuel mileage and drivability at the altitudes where I live.
Didn't Jason say he was going to be making that trip in February on one of his posts?
CD
Yep, some time next month I'm going to jet to Michigan. I have yet to make plans as I'm waiting for the outcome of my GF's contract job. And I'm about to deploy a new monitoring application for our infrastructure here at work at the end of the month and I need to stick around for 2 weeks after that's launched to correct/change/whatnot issues with it (it's rather complex. months of development and testing time... ). Then I'm outa MN for a week on a much needed vacation.
Sorry to spring this idea on you folks with such a big gap in results. I was kinda thinking out loud when I typed that up and honestly should of waited.
ohh well what's done is done. Time will fly by and it'll be done before you know it!.
Sorry to spring this idea on you folks with such a big gap in results. I was kinda thinking out loud when I typed that up and honestly should of waited.
ohh well what's done is done. Time will fly by and it'll be done before you know it!.
NO problem Jason - this will be interesting, but not necessarily earth-shattering, so nothing to get too worked up over - and we can sit and kill time while we wait... :-laf
To start there are a lot more things to be consired than key counts... ..... that is just what most people know about. There is much more history stored that will go away with other programmers.
Yes of course some will assume you have more done to your truck... ... ... . on the 6. 7 Dodge is very concerned on the 5. 9 not so much
Bob
This is just my cynical mind talking here... ... ... when you take you truck to this chrysler ecm guru, if he can't detect it he will probably figure out a way after a couple of hours and then all the smarty guys will be screwed. Can you say TSB? Marco will have to do something different to stay one step ahead! I could care less, because I don't have a smarty and am way over my km's for warranty anyways. I want to get a smarty jr though.
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you really think $685 is too munch money for Chrysler to go buy a smarty of their own?
Do you think Chrylser has enough problems with the 6. 7 to worry about a "working" 5. 9?
And this guy doesn't care. I'm going to give him and anybody a joy ride, roll it into the shop, tune to stock. And have them show me proof between a known never been touched ECU read out of some sort vs. what mine does to prove it makes some sort of a dent.
That is all.
Do you think Chrylser has enough problems with the 6. 7 to worry about a "working" 5. 9?
And this guy doesn't care. I'm going to give him and anybody a joy ride, roll it into the shop, tune to stock. And have them show me proof between a known never been touched ECU read out of some sort vs. what mine does to prove it makes some sort of a dent.
That is all.
I am assuming that the TST in your sig will not have any effect in your final outcome regarding the 'dent' that might be on your trucks data? Otherwise, even if you have removed the TST, or have it out of play in your 'test' to me you could still have corrupted information. The only way to guarantee that your 'dent' test is foolproof, it to be testing a truck that has had nothing other than the Smarty.
Just my 2/10th of a dime, but you cannot test for one thing alone when other variables could have changed things.
CD
Just my 2/10th of a dime, but you cannot test for one thing alone when other variables could have changed things.
CD
I had an edge on the truck long before I knew of the smarty.
I'll see about new ECM to programer/deprogram vs. using my truck's ECM.
However. I thought the concept of the piggy-back "box" was the same that of the Smarty to be un-detectable, other then the physical signs (velco, EGT ports drilled, ect)
The principle behind the "Box" is to take the stock signal, then modify it between the ECU and the sensor to fool the engine into something else and to ensure the ECU only see's stock values to prevent codes
The TST boxes takes the stock injector amperage, then multiples it to increase the pulse width while the injection event is happening to make more duration. It add's too, doesn't change
Boost fooling never seems to set an "over boost" code cuz the ECU NEVER see's more then 28-32 (or what ever the max is)i
If all this is true (and there is no reason it isn't), then the TST, edge, VA C5, MP8 and what not are undetectable as well from a software read out standpoint.
I'll see about new ECM to programer/deprogram vs. using my truck's ECM.
However. I thought the concept of the piggy-back "box" was the same that of the Smarty to be un-detectable, other then the physical signs (velco, EGT ports drilled, ect)
The principle behind the "Box" is to take the stock signal, then modify it between the ECU and the sensor to fool the engine into something else and to ensure the ECU only see's stock values to prevent codes
The TST boxes takes the stock injector amperage, then multiples it to increase the pulse width while the injection event is happening to make more duration. It add's too, doesn't change
Boost fooling never seems to set an "over boost" code cuz the ECU NEVER see's more then 28-32 (or what ever the max is)i
If all this is true (and there is no reason it isn't), then the TST, edge, VA C5, MP8 and what not are undetectable as well from a software read out standpoint.
While 'fooling' keeps the stock ECU from throwing a code, if stored data can actually be read or printed out it may well be that the data itself would show the actuals, meaning that a printout in graph form might demonstrate different durations, fueling-hp-etc and the existance of alternative programming or at least alternative operation.
This information may be obtainable in the overall picture of analyzing performance or diagnostics. It just might not be part of a normal testing procedure that is run in the overall checking of a truck when connected to equipment to do flashes, or ECM/PCM even ABS adjustments.
While the more noticable physical signs (velcro, EGT probes, gauges,etc) are clues regarding 'boxes' possibly existing or an assumption that a 'box' exists, a programmers is a whold different ball game.
Ultimately codes disapear with x-number key starts because your reference is the idiot light finally turning off, but do they really? Is there a recording process that requires them being physically removed? Seems to me that must be the case as the Smarty provides that ability no differently than the Star Scan in accessing this ROM area and 'cleaning' the information. As I understand it, and I could be wrong, the Smarty programming does replace the ECM programming. By 'returning to stock' it returns the factory programming, the firmware so to speak.
Having the separation of programming vrs a secondary catche of data is not by any means some new proposition, in fact, that is pretty much the satandard method of operation regarding ECM's and keeping them safe from some alternate source of data corruption. Any high magnetic exposure will erase your firmware on your ECM, the RFI from a CB radio can run interference or affect your ECM.
It would be equally conceivable that the 'dents' also disapear in/over time with key starts. I doubt that the ECM is capable of keeping data for the entire life of the truck in a ROM, but it may keep sufficient information in a ROM for x-number hours of operation, for the purpose of diagnostics.
Again, while 'fooling' takes place as to not set off codes, some other form of information for the purpose of diagnostics may be there in the last x-number hours of operation/running of the truck. That data also might surfice to actually be the point of detection or difference over what would be expecte to be normal.
We all know that a ton of data is retrievable with regard to operation, that an insuracne company can be provided with the precise moment in time that an airbag was set off, at the same moment in time they can also know what your speed/rate of travel was, rpm's, possibly the gear your transmission was in, the exact timeframe it took your reflexes to apply the brakes, and furthermore they also can know your exact direction of travel via the data from the overhead information being streamed in/out of your trucks computer systems. This simple information requires running software on your truck to extract data, plain and simple, all data can be extracted from some point in time. If the 'fooling' also serves to change the performance mapping, it would still be hard to change how that mapping sees duration times, etc differently because running a parallel shell would not be able to compensate for duration.
CD
This information may be obtainable in the overall picture of analyzing performance or diagnostics. It just might not be part of a normal testing procedure that is run in the overall checking of a truck when connected to equipment to do flashes, or ECM/PCM even ABS adjustments.
While the more noticable physical signs (velcro, EGT probes, gauges,etc) are clues regarding 'boxes' possibly existing or an assumption that a 'box' exists, a programmers is a whold different ball game.
Ultimately codes disapear with x-number key starts because your reference is the idiot light finally turning off, but do they really? Is there a recording process that requires them being physically removed? Seems to me that must be the case as the Smarty provides that ability no differently than the Star Scan in accessing this ROM area and 'cleaning' the information. As I understand it, and I could be wrong, the Smarty programming does replace the ECM programming. By 'returning to stock' it returns the factory programming, the firmware so to speak.
Having the separation of programming vrs a secondary catche of data is not by any means some new proposition, in fact, that is pretty much the satandard method of operation regarding ECM's and keeping them safe from some alternate source of data corruption. Any high magnetic exposure will erase your firmware on your ECM, the RFI from a CB radio can run interference or affect your ECM.
It would be equally conceivable that the 'dents' also disapear in/over time with key starts. I doubt that the ECM is capable of keeping data for the entire life of the truck in a ROM, but it may keep sufficient information in a ROM for x-number hours of operation, for the purpose of diagnostics.
Again, while 'fooling' takes place as to not set off codes, some other form of information for the purpose of diagnostics may be there in the last x-number hours of operation/running of the truck. That data also might surfice to actually be the point of detection or difference over what would be expecte to be normal.
We all know that a ton of data is retrievable with regard to operation, that an insuracne company can be provided with the precise moment in time that an airbag was set off, at the same moment in time they can also know what your speed/rate of travel was, rpm's, possibly the gear your transmission was in, the exact timeframe it took your reflexes to apply the brakes, and furthermore they also can know your exact direction of travel via the data from the overhead information being streamed in/out of your trucks computer systems. This simple information requires running software on your truck to extract data, plain and simple, all data can be extracted from some point in time. If the 'fooling' also serves to change the performance mapping, it would still be hard to change how that mapping sees duration times, etc differently because running a parallel shell would not be able to compensate for duration.
CD
It would be equally conceivable that the 'dents' also disapear in/over time with key starts. I doubt that the ECM is capable of keeping data for the entire life of the truck in a ROM, but it may keep sufficient information in a ROM for x-number hours of operation, for the purpose of diagnostics.
The 3rd gen does have lifetime data storage
Bob
The 3rd gen does have lifetime data storage
Bob
Hey Bob.
3rd gen beginning when? Maybe the new 2007. 5's and up with the new ECM's and data pathing. Looking at the information available on the 2006's, the ROM is selective, meaning that incoming new data pushes out or drops off old data back x-number 'catches'. So, the ROM allows a collective stream of so many bytes of information over a given time, but it does not compact or zip data, so it's overall capacity is not capable of lifetime data.
CD
3rd gen beginning when? Maybe the new 2007. 5's and up with the new ECM's and data pathing. Looking at the information available on the 2006's, the ROM is selective, meaning that incoming new data pushes out or drops off old data back x-number 'catches'. So, the ROM allows a collective stream of so many bytes of information over a given time, but it does not compact or zip data, so it's overall capacity is not capable of lifetime data.
CD
I don't think it's conceivable that the fueling rates and boost numbers and timing above stock is savable with an external box modifying them. The changes are AFTER the ECU commanded them. This is shown in obviously in the MPG read out being WAAAAY off. This not just for codes. The changes data never should get back to the ECU, it shold be filtered off, just like boost fooling.
I know for a fact that when the idiot light goes out, the code are still stored.
However, RPM's and Speed can not be fooled. My truck has seen 3700rpm (dyno) and 120+ on the speedometer (dyno, 135+mph) (3500rpm, 120mph on the road). If that data is stored, then it's obvious. This can be done with even an external box in theory (VA C5 I hear can raise RPM limit).
Bob4x4,
Ram is cheap. And with a database style call "RRD" (round robin database). A years worth of metrics can be stored in a fix file size with various data rates for smaller time periods.
I know for a fact that when the idiot light goes out, the code are still stored.
However, RPM's and Speed can not be fooled. My truck has seen 3700rpm (dyno) and 120+ on the speedometer (dyno, 135+mph) (3500rpm, 120mph on the road). If that data is stored, then it's obvious. This can be done with even an external box in theory (VA C5 I hear can raise RPM limit).
Bob4x4,
Ram is cheap. And with a database style call "RRD" (round robin database). A years worth of metrics can be stored in a fix file size with various data rates for smaller time periods.
I have a buddy who had an 03 dmax with a BD chip (remarked edge juice) toasted a cylinder via a cracked/stuck injector. He has had injectors replaced before under warranty without any problems whatsoever! Dealer knew about chip (they are good friends) ordered up a long block under warranty, GM calls says plug the truck into their diagnostic machine, my buddies friend the service manager said in all my 20 something years ive never seen the diag. machine do what it did when GM was reading the ecm via internet! There were no stored codes or CEL's, GM calls back and says warrenty void!!!! they could trace almost 300 faults in the ecm that the service manager couldnt bring up with the same diagnostic machine!!!!!! $10K later my buddy had a running truck agin!
There is alot more going on in the ECM that we and dealers/sevice techs dont know about
There is alot more going on in the ECM that we and dealers/sevice techs dont know about
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AH64ID
TDR MEMBER
I emailed with Marco about the settings as this was my and my dads concern. Not to get free parts I broke, but if something unrelated happens.
In order to boost fool the Smarty Jr tells programs the ECM to not open the wastegate, so the ECM see the actual increased boost you gain, so what does the smarty do??? It rewrites the max boost code, same with timing, and fuel burn... But it doesnt touch the hour meter, key count, etc. Those all stay intact.
There is also no velcro to give it away...
There are many people who run gauges, intakes, exhausts and no chip/programmers. Both my dad and I had no intentions of running a chip until the Jr came out, and the only reason we have it is the OEM EGTs are stupid hot, and the Jr lowers them to a safer level.
I will believe the "hype" until its proven wrong. The only thing is that you have the current ECM software and the dodge computer says you have the older one. But then again, I dont think they updated my underhood sticker like the TSB says to do, so???
In order to boost fool the Smarty Jr tells programs the ECM to not open the wastegate, so the ECM see the actual increased boost you gain, so what does the smarty do??? It rewrites the max boost code, same with timing, and fuel burn... But it doesnt touch the hour meter, key count, etc. Those all stay intact.
There is also no velcro to give it away...
There are many people who run gauges, intakes, exhausts and no chip/programmers. Both my dad and I had no intentions of running a chip until the Jr came out, and the only reason we have it is the OEM EGTs are stupid hot, and the Jr lowers them to a safer level.
I will believe the "hype" until its proven wrong. The only thing is that you have the current ECM software and the dodge computer says you have the older one. But then again, I dont think they updated my underhood sticker like the TSB says to do, so???
Bob Wagner
TDR MEMBER
Marco hates the word "hype" we walk the walk.
Look what the c5 may have done
Look what the c5 may have done
Marco hates the word "hype" we walk the walk.
Look what the c5 may have done
Bob, hows the vp44 updates coming along????? #@$%!
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AH64ID
TDR MEMBER
Marco hates the word "hype" we walk the walk.
Look what the c5 may have done
I dont doubt that... . "hype" just seemed to fit
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