Ethanol is NOT the fuel that will end our oil addiction

[lil red cummins]

I have been reading about ethanol for some time. Between magazines, TV and common sense, it has been obvious to me that greatly increased ethanol production WILL NOT help us very much at all.



In actuality, it will probably cause food prices to go up substantially and fuel prices will continue to rise anyway.



Ethanol has approximately 25% lower BTU's per pound than gasoline so mileage will degrade proportionally. So what do we gain with ethanol???



Please read this article from a "Fellow" in the energy business. He has hit the nail squarely on the head as far as i am concerned.



IMHO, drilling in the Anwar seems like a much better idea. Please see this article on the senate going ahead with drilling back in 2004. What happened to that??



New oil sources will help not only gasoline vehicles but our diesels also. If congress is smart, they will attach a condition to any company allowed to take oil from the Anwar, that it be sold and used ONLY in the United States.



There is NO substitute for corn in my food !!! I like my cereals just the way they are. Ethanol will do nothing for our diesels.



I am not against ethanol production as long as the price of food is not affected. but how realistic is that?



Fire away.



Jim

 

[fox]

Here is my take on ethanol.

It can be a piece of the solution. It won't be THE answer.

Also, ethanol motors need to be dedicated to it.

Ethanol is a higher octane, so build 12-13 to 1 compression motors for it. Now, the economy will be closer.

Also, we need to grow more oil crops to make veggie oil/fuel.

And of course anwr needs to be tapped, and kept for the us.

Few agree with this, but the higher fuel prices will reduce consumption. I would rather have that than the rationing we had before.

I have reduced my driving by quite a bit, maybe 20%.

 

[tgordon]

I will say ethanol and other fuels are part of the answer, but I have yet to see anything that is tha "smokeing gun".



IMHO as to the price of food, look at where your costs are, it ain't the corn in your cereal, it's everybody elses cut that increses because they can and then blame it on the farmers.



The other benefit of the increase in crop prices, while every other industry is cutting employees and selling out, if you want a new piece of farm equipment order it now and you might have it in a year. This is a world wide effect, not just the US. Dealership I use to work for has a 4wd tractor going to Soviot Union area, and a guy coming up to look at a planter from Uraguay. You also need to bear in mind the average person in the US spend less than 10% of their income on food, I do not belive any other country in the world has that cheap of food.

 

[DennyDay]

lil red cummins --- You used two words in the same sentence that just ain't gonna' happen - - - Congress and smart!



Denny

 

[telliott]

The increase in the price of food has a lot to do with rising fuel prices. Everything in the store arrived there buy truck. Rising fuel prices means rising transport cost, and eventually rising cost in the product. In addition, the producers are also suffering from the fuel prices. It costs the farmers more and more to produce the cereal we eat, therefor prices have to be increased. Like Tgordon said, we have the cheapest food supply in the world, so we really shouldn't be complaining about it. Not saying i want to pay more for food, but I dont think it is something we should be too concerned about, we just might have to save for that new turbo a little longer. After all, food is one of the major staples in our well-being, so we should be willing to pay a little more if we have to.



Now as for ethanol, it definitly is not the answer. If you consider the energy cost in planting the corn, the fuel to run the irrigation, the fuel to harvest it, and the energy to process it into ethanol, it likely costs more to produce a gallon of ethanol than the savings we get from using it. It seems to me that we are going backwards.



And yes, rising corn prices are a big reason for overall rising food prices too. not only does it raise the cost of anything with corn in it but nearly every meat animal we consume is finished on a corn ration. The higher the corn price gets, the more expensive it gets to feed the beef, chicken, and pork we consume. Not to mention the dairy cattle that produce the milk, cheese, e. t. c.



Sorry about the long rant, but in my opinion, ethanol is only making things worse. And for the envirofriendly people, Ethanol does not burn any cleaner than petroleum anyway, and because it provides less energy, we just use more of it to get the same results, resulting in more pollutans, and more energy wasted.



Hope I didn't offend anyone, i'm not trying to. Just expressing my opinion.

 

[PKnight]

All of you have made good points about ethanol. It can be part of the solution. It does not have to be a problem. Ethanol can be produced from a variety of organic materials, not just corn. It can be produced from materials that do not meet food standards or even feed standards. In other words it can be made from "distressed" grains, cheese whey and other wastes as well as grasses, wood waste, Etc. . The waste material from ethanol production then can be used as a feed suppliment for animals. This is a valuable by-product that, in effect, reduces the cost of ethanol production. By using materials as mentioned above the cost of disposal of such items is eleminated, thus reducing the production cost of ethanol. If done properly, ethanol is definitely energy positive.

 

[telliott]

The waste material from ethanol production then can be used as a feed suppliment for animals. This is a valuable by-product that, in effect, reduces the cost of ethanol production.

This is true. the by product of corn ethanol is referred to as wet distillers grain. With the high prices of corn this past summer, the ethanol plants were actually making more money on selling the distillers grains to feedlots, than they were on their ethanol production. This is a benifit. However it is not a perfect solution because of some digestability problems in the animals with the distillers grain. In the process of converting the corn into ethanol, the starch from the corn is removed. Because of this, the distillers grain can not be fed with out still adding non-processed corn to the ration. But i do agree, it is an excellent way to get rid of the waste products of ethanol production, and provides feedlots with a good feed source. Hence the reason many ethanol plants are built in vicinities of feedlots.

 

[lil red cummins]

lil red cummins --- You used two words in the same sentence that just ain't gonna' happen - - - Congress and smart!

AMEN brother!!:-laf







my cousin just bought a NEW 08 Ranger pickup with the 4. 0L engine.



on the gas filler door it has a red circle with a diagonal line through it that says "E-85".



apparently Ford says one "green" thing in advertising and puts another thing out on the street.



BTW, have any of the presidential candidates mentioned one SUBSTANTIVE thought about ethanol??



from what i've heard, the answer is no. hopefully ethanol will go back to being considered a limited alternative after the election or at least become only a minor annoyance.



as stated before, i am all for keeping our farmers working, but my food prices should not be affected by ethanol production.



jim

 

[Cattletrkr]

The price of corn DOES NOT impact food prices nearly as much as everybody seems to think. Take a 16oz bag of corn chips for example. IF ALL 16oz were corn, the price of corn would have to go up to $5. 60 for there to be $0. 10 of corn in that bag. Big whoop.

When was the last time any farmer ever demanded more money for his product and got it? It doesn't work that way. Just because corn is expensive, doesn't meant there is any incentive for the meat packers or dairy processors to pay more.

Farmers take the blame for this only because we don't have a loud enough voice to set the record straight.

Where was all the outcry FOR the poor farmer 3 years ago when we sold corn for $1. 54... well below breakeven?

EDIT: I don't think ethanol is the answer either. But I cant'stand it when people blame the high price of corn for increases at the grocery store. The connection simply does not exist.

 

[DZLROKET]

You guys need to check THIS out!



Jatropha oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[tgordon]

as stated before, i am all for keeping our farmers working, but my food prices should not be affected by ethanol production.



jim

My food prices should not be effected by other peoples hobbies, but that hasn't outlawed peolpe having horses, now that we can't slaughter them any more.

 

[rweis]

Let's see, we order a few hundred UNS (universal nut shellers) for every prison system. The inmates shell the nuts, turn the nuts into biodiesel, (leaving the corn etc crops alone for previous purposes) and we get a handle on the fuel problem. Supposedly 1/4 of the US population is in jail for one reason or another, ie "captive audiance".



We could also sell the UNS for individuals to sit on the front/back porch shelling nuts as a basement industry to make a few extra bucks. I wonder how many pounds of nuts you could shell per 1/2 hr of TV? The term "couch potato" could become a good thing. It would also be aerobic to help with the obease population problem. Think of all the assisted living and nursing homes that could shell nuts.



Buy the unprocessed nuts at the local farmers market, sell the processed nuts back at the local farmers market. Would be a great cottage industry. Everyone that could turn the handle could supplement their income and be part of the solution.



Do I hear Wal-Mart taking an interest? Sort of like the Victory Gardens of WWII.



If India and Africa can do it, then we certainly should be able to do it.



Jatropha World Home



Bob Weis

 

[Petethewicked]

From my limited understanding...



It takes More energy then it gives out. Making it uses tons of fossel fuels. .



not just in the tractors, delivery trucks, but the processing of the oil itself requires more energy in the form of electricity then you get out of the fuel. Where does that electricity come from? Coal. . which is at least from usa, but harvested using lots more fossel fuels.



now, if you put the processing plants near the major sources of the oil, and you stuck a nuke plant near that. . and. . no. . it will never make $$ or cents OR EVER HELP WITH GREEN HOUSE GASS



Side note... we should just dump all coal use and build nuke plants all over the country, our oil consumption for home heating, electricity would be cut to a quarter and we wouldn't need to buy any oil.

 

[Petethewicked]

The price of corn DOES NOT impact food prices nearly as much as everybody seems to think. Take a 16oz bag of corn chips for example. IF ALL 16oz were corn, the price of corn would have to go up to $5. 60 for there to be $0. 10 of corn in that bag. Big whoop.

When was the last time any farmer ever demanded more money for his product and got it? It doesn't work that way. Just because corn is expensive, doesn't meant there is any incentive for the meat packers or dairy processors to pay more.

Farmers take the blame for this only because we don't have a loud enough voice to set the record straight.

Where was all the outcry FOR the poor farmer 3 years ago when we sold corn for $1. 54... well below breakeven?

EDIT: I don't think ethanol is the answer either. But I cant'stand it when people blame the high price of corn for increases at the grocery store. The connection simply does not exist.

Farmers are switching to corn production to get as much money as they can for there products. . everything else is going up!

 

[telliott]

corn is not the sole blame for rising food prices, its mostly rising fuel costs that are to blame for that, but corn does play a role. And yes, because corn prices are high, many producers are moving towards producing more corn. This leaves a shortage in other products therefor raising the price of them, therefor raising the price of other grocery products. It's all connected.

 

[Tractorat]

I absolutely agree that any oil from anwr should be sold exclusively to the US. However, imo, I think that that oil, as well as ANY domestically drilled oil should also be sold to the US for under $50/bl, not world prices. The world prices on oil are killing us. As well as the greed of the refineries and the oil companies.



My 2cents worth

 

[kowaliga]

Prices will rise for fuel. Right now, the money goes to the wrong people. If our farmers can make a good living from corn-to-ethanol, by all means make ethanol. Diesel should come from our coal/SASOL process. If everything costs more. . I'm more willing to pay Americans for it. . than I am willing to pay others. Any cost for energy self-sufficiency.