Wow, you're about the rudest SOB on this board. And totally ignorant to boot! You can claim whatever you want over and over, YOU ARE STILL WRONG!! Maybe you could find a way to pull you head out of your backside long enough to change rush limbaugh to a REAL news source and pay attention long enough to comprehend it. Good luck!
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FED UP with fuel prices?
- Thread starter Crazy Horse
- Start Date
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Wow, you're about the rudest SOB on this board. And totally ignorant to boot! You can claim whatever you want over and over, YOU ARE STILL WRONG!! Maybe you could find a way to pull you head out of your backside long enough to change rush limbaugh to a REAL news source and pay attention long enough to comprehend it. Good luck!
DCreed,
Well, if I'm wrong would you please explain how manufacturers can force consumers in a free market like we enjoy to buy what they build instead of what the consumer wants to buy.
Or, if you mean I'm only wrong about supply and demand when I wrote about the oil industry and high fuel prices, would you be kind enough to explain why your liberal socialist presidential candidate, osama obama stated that drilling for American oil would not lower fuel prices in less than five years. Clearly, he is either dishonest or wrong but he acknowledged by his answer that he knows that increasing supply would reduce prices, just not immediately.
Good luck.
Well, if I'm wrong would you please explain how manufacturers can force consumers in a free market like we enjoy to buy what they build instead of what the consumer wants to buy.
Or, if you mean I'm only wrong about supply and demand when I wrote about the oil industry and high fuel prices, would you be kind enough to explain why your liberal socialist presidential candidate, osama obama stated that drilling for American oil would not lower fuel prices in less than five years. Clearly, he is either dishonest or wrong but he acknowledged by his answer that he knows that increasing supply would reduce prices, just not immediately.
Good luck.
Sony Pictures Classics Presents : Who Killed the Electric Car?
Obama on oil drilling: 'Not a long-term solution' -The Green Blog - A Boston Globe blog on living Green in Boston
Domestic oil and gas is not the ticket to U. S. energy security | By Amory Lovins and L. Hunter Lovins | Grist | Soapbox | 20 Nov 2001
Environmental Economics: The effect of doubling domestic oil production on oil prices
just a few to get you started!:-laf
Obama on oil drilling: 'Not a long-term solution' -The Green Blog - A Boston Globe blog on living Green in Boston
Domestic oil and gas is not the ticket to U. S. energy security | By Amory Lovins and L. Hunter Lovins | Grist | Soapbox | 20 Nov 2001
Environmental Economics: The effect of doubling domestic oil production on oil prices
just a few to get you started!:-laf
I think what needs to happen is the unleashing of the greatest economic engine the world has ever seen, the American free enterprise system.
There's no single solution to the energy problems we face, although drilling here, drilling now and paying less will be a good start. There are now over 1 million signators of that petition and it will have an impact on this years election. Convincing the current oil suppliers and speculators that we mean business and intend to bring our own energy products on stream in a big way will have a serious impact on prices, almost immediately. None of these people want to be on the wrong side of the pricing pendulum which is exactly what would happen if they continued to bid up the price in the face of increasing supply.
I believe in conservation, wastefulness is simply stupid. No one wants to wantonly rape and pillage the environment. Thats a fallacy harped on by those with an agenda that has nothing to do with the freedoms of the American people, other than to limit them.
Conservation on the part of Americans, however, won't do much to increase supply, which is needed rapidly to meet growing demands from societies around the world trying to achieve a lifestyle we already enjoy.
We need to start building nuclear power generating facilities. They will free up huge quantitites of fuel that can then be used for other purposes. They could also provide the clean efficient power for a new generation of electric cars that would actually work well, particularly in commuter or intracity applications.
We must also plan on storing these nuclear plants' waste products for a hundred years or so before we can use a safe and efficient "space elevator" system to launch them into the sun for final disposal. These types of technologies are on the horizon, and aren't pipe dreams.
There is also no reason that giant solar mirors could not be positioned in space to focus concentrated sunlight into land based facilites in areas of the country where their heat could be turned into absolutely clean, and infinitely continuous electric power generation.
More needs to be done in regard to renewable sources of energy like wind, solar, biomass to ethanol, tidal flow power generation and many others I haven't even mentioned.
All of these things need to proceed on a pace that reflects the urgency of the situation, simultaneously. The energy problem can be solved and American technology and ingenuity is the answer.
We need to proceed on shale to oil and coal to oil conversion. If the estimates I have seen are correct, there is no reason that the US couldn't, over the period of the next 15-20 years or so become a net oil exporter. Anyone who thinks that wouldn't have the effect of depressing oil prices is living in a dream world. And, if the price stayed high, counter to all economic theory, the US could be the recipient of Euro's, and Yen and other currencies from around the world, paying us for these products instead of our buying these necessary products from people who, charitably speaking, don't have our best interests at heart.
Also, this kind of oil, "pre-refined" if you will, could be of far higher quality, and therefore more valuable than the sour crude that comes from the Persian Gulf and other areas around the world.
We simply cannot go back to the horse and buggy days with some kind of agrarian lifestyle from the 1800's. It won't work and most folks probably wouldn't like it all that much anyway.
The Obamaloons and their ilk (the Algores and Pelosi's and Reeds of the world) are smart enough to know this. They are simply trying to amass power for themselves and the easiest way to do that is to take power from the masses --- the power to travel freely (well, reasonably anyway) for instance would be a good place to start in their opinion.
The time for action is now. These issues have been jawboned to death and nothing has happened to alleviate the problem. Unfetter American business and allow them to do what they do best, create answers in response to the peoples needs. Their profit motive or greed is exactly what will inspire them to do that. Trying to tax to death the goose that laid and continues to offer to provide the golden eggs of the future is beyond stupid. It's self defeating and will be catastrophic to our way of life if we continue to allow it to happen.
Off rant...
There's no single solution to the energy problems we face, although drilling here, drilling now and paying less will be a good start. There are now over 1 million signators of that petition and it will have an impact on this years election. Convincing the current oil suppliers and speculators that we mean business and intend to bring our own energy products on stream in a big way will have a serious impact on prices, almost immediately. None of these people want to be on the wrong side of the pricing pendulum which is exactly what would happen if they continued to bid up the price in the face of increasing supply.
I believe in conservation, wastefulness is simply stupid. No one wants to wantonly rape and pillage the environment. Thats a fallacy harped on by those with an agenda that has nothing to do with the freedoms of the American people, other than to limit them.
Conservation on the part of Americans, however, won't do much to increase supply, which is needed rapidly to meet growing demands from societies around the world trying to achieve a lifestyle we already enjoy.
We need to start building nuclear power generating facilities. They will free up huge quantitites of fuel that can then be used for other purposes. They could also provide the clean efficient power for a new generation of electric cars that would actually work well, particularly in commuter or intracity applications.
We must also plan on storing these nuclear plants' waste products for a hundred years or so before we can use a safe and efficient "space elevator" system to launch them into the sun for final disposal. These types of technologies are on the horizon, and aren't pipe dreams.
There is also no reason that giant solar mirors could not be positioned in space to focus concentrated sunlight into land based facilites in areas of the country where their heat could be turned into absolutely clean, and infinitely continuous electric power generation.
More needs to be done in regard to renewable sources of energy like wind, solar, biomass to ethanol, tidal flow power generation and many others I haven't even mentioned.
All of these things need to proceed on a pace that reflects the urgency of the situation, simultaneously. The energy problem can be solved and American technology and ingenuity is the answer.
We need to proceed on shale to oil and coal to oil conversion. If the estimates I have seen are correct, there is no reason that the US couldn't, over the period of the next 15-20 years or so become a net oil exporter. Anyone who thinks that wouldn't have the effect of depressing oil prices is living in a dream world. And, if the price stayed high, counter to all economic theory, the US could be the recipient of Euro's, and Yen and other currencies from around the world, paying us for these products instead of our buying these necessary products from people who, charitably speaking, don't have our best interests at heart.
Also, this kind of oil, "pre-refined" if you will, could be of far higher quality, and therefore more valuable than the sour crude that comes from the Persian Gulf and other areas around the world.
We simply cannot go back to the horse and buggy days with some kind of agrarian lifestyle from the 1800's. It won't work and most folks probably wouldn't like it all that much anyway.
The Obamaloons and their ilk (the Algores and Pelosi's and Reeds of the world) are smart enough to know this. They are simply trying to amass power for themselves and the easiest way to do that is to take power from the masses --- the power to travel freely (well, reasonably anyway) for instance would be a good place to start in their opinion.
The time for action is now. These issues have been jawboned to death and nothing has happened to alleviate the problem. Unfetter American business and allow them to do what they do best, create answers in response to the peoples needs. Their profit motive or greed is exactly what will inspire them to do that. Trying to tax to death the goose that laid and continues to offer to provide the golden eggs of the future is beyond stupid. It's self defeating and will be catastrophic to our way of life if we continue to allow it to happen.
Off rant...
People are forgetting one of the major causes of this "oil crisis".
DEBT!!!!!! Personal and Government!
Until someone has balls enough to say "Screw the people with outrageous mortgages and the banks that allowed them" and "Fed. STOP PRINTING MONEY and raise the interest rates" there will be no viable solution.
Crude is high because the dollar is worthless! Period.
DEBT!!!!!! Personal and Government!
Until someone has balls enough to say "Screw the people with outrageous mortgages and the banks that allowed them" and "Fed. STOP PRINTING MONEY and raise the interest rates" there will be no viable solution.
Crude is high because the dollar is worthless! Period.
TAbbott,
Wow, I'm impressed! Your powerful piece should be published in newspapers with a nationwide coverage and should be read in both houses of Congress with all the blow-dried empty suits forced to sit in their chairs and listen.
As a matter fact, since I mentioned Congress, why don't you run for Congress? America needs clear thinking well-informed leaders like you.
I don't know what district or state you live in but if you run, I'll do what the democraps do... ..... travel to your district and vote for you.
Your opening sentence, "I think what needs to happen is the unleashing of the greatest economic engine the world has ever seen, the American free enterprise system" really sums up the entire solution. All the details, some you mentioned and some you didn't, would be addressed by ambitious, entrepreneurial capitalists. That line is what separates American patriots like you and me from the hate America first socialists who want to blame America and the American free enterprise system for their own lack of success.
Wow, I'm impressed! Your powerful piece should be published in newspapers with a nationwide coverage and should be read in both houses of Congress with all the blow-dried empty suits forced to sit in their chairs and listen.
As a matter fact, since I mentioned Congress, why don't you run for Congress? America needs clear thinking well-informed leaders like you.
I don't know what district or state you live in but if you run, I'll do what the democraps do... ..... travel to your district and vote for you.
Your opening sentence, "I think what needs to happen is the unleashing of the greatest economic engine the world has ever seen, the American free enterprise system" really sums up the entire solution. All the details, some you mentioned and some you didn't, would be addressed by ambitious, entrepreneurial capitalists. That line is what separates American patriots like you and me from the hate America first socialists who want to blame America and the American free enterprise system for their own lack of success.
TBoneMan,
You are absolutely correct. Personal debt is what drives all the whiners and hand-wringers. They have been living beyond their means for years and getting away with it (barely) by repeatedly refinancing their mortgages while ignoring the insignificant little abbreviation, "ARM" in the contract. Now the bill is due and they can't pay it or continue their false, inflated lifestyles any longer so they want us to bail them out so they can continue.
Ditto the banks who waived lending standards and allowed loan applicants to "state their incomes" without proof. They deserve to go under except in the case of minority lending which was forced on them by the blowdried empty suits in Congress.
I also agree with you that the low and declining value of the dollar is a primary cause of high motor fuel prices.
Well said!
You are absolutely correct. Personal debt is what drives all the whiners and hand-wringers. They have been living beyond their means for years and getting away with it (barely) by repeatedly refinancing their mortgages while ignoring the insignificant little abbreviation, "ARM" in the contract. Now the bill is due and they can't pay it or continue their false, inflated lifestyles any longer so they want us to bail them out so they can continue.
Ditto the banks who waived lending standards and allowed loan applicants to "state their incomes" without proof. They deserve to go under except in the case of minority lending which was forced on them by the blowdried empty suits in Congress.
I also agree with you that the low and declining value of the dollar is a primary cause of high motor fuel prices.
Well said!
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MSNBC - Countdown with Keith Olbermann - The Official Web site Front Page
For the Supply and Demand CLUELESS.
High Speed Required.
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AND:
YUP - but you have to remember who you're dealing with here - those who absolutely WORSHIP anything related to BIG business (just screw the little guys who get trampled in the process, after all they're just getting what they deserve, for poor planning!), and whose primary shield against pointers to info that conflicts with their tidy little corporate-worship, government hating world, is to simply "disregard" the source, as slanted and inaccurate...
Funny thing, every time I attempt to "disregard" the local $4. 92 per gallon diesel fuel cost, that damn bill stays just the same, doesn't drop a penny!
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I can't believe some of this stuff. Some of you doubt the basics of supply and demand even though it is in front of you every day. Oil on the market will reduce the price it doesn't matter where it comes from, or what you think.
Dumber yet, you seem to think goverment is somehow going to make things better with their intervention and control of the industry. Name a time or two that has happened.
Then you want to believe views contrary to yours are rooted in the other guys income, of which you know nothing. Oh but those rich politicians are going to help you out, sure right. Most of the people I know can weather the times but we ARE concerned with the "less fortunate".
For a good look at results of the socialist approach look at Cuba or Hugo's paradise. Cause that is where those policies lead a country. Communistic regimes are always, I repeat ALWAyS built on preexisting wealth and when it is gone the entire country fails. Seems some of those less fortunate people don't really want to work/produce for the good of the collective
.
Give me free enterprise, Please!
Dumber yet, you seem to think goverment is somehow going to make things better with their intervention and control of the industry. Name a time or two that has happened.
Then you want to believe views contrary to yours are rooted in the other guys income, of which you know nothing. Oh but those rich politicians are going to help you out, sure right. Most of the people I know can weather the times but we ARE concerned with the "less fortunate".
For a good look at results of the socialist approach look at Cuba or Hugo's paradise. Cause that is where those policies lead a country. Communistic regimes are always, I repeat ALWAyS built on preexisting wealth and when it is gone the entire country fails. Seems some of those less fortunate people don't really want to work/produce for the good of the collective
. Give me free enterprise, Please!
I can't believe some of this stuff. Some of you doubt the basics of supply and demand even though it is in front of you every day. Oil on the market will reduce the price it doesn't matter where it comes from, or what you think.
and bottled water would be cheap if only there was a good source... :-laf
Dumber yet, you seem to think goverment is somehow going to make things better with their intervention and control of the industry. Name a time or two that has happened.
Ever heard of the FDA? Who was it that banned lead paint?Who makes sure you water is safe to drink? How do you know that toy you bought you child is safe? Dang govt. !
Then you want to believe views contrary to yours are rooted in the other guys income, of which you know nothing. Oh but those rich politicians are going to help you out, sure right. Most of the people I know can weather the times but we ARE concerned with the "less fortunate".
AMEN!
For a good look at results of the socialist approach look at Cuba or Hugo's paradise. Cause that is where those policies lead a country. Communistic regimes are always, I repeat ALWAyS built on preexisting wealth and when it is gone the entire country fails. Seems some of those less fortunate people don't really want to work/produce for the good of the collective
Where is this socialist poop coming from? No one is talking about that at all!!
Give me free enterprise, Please!
Nothing is "free".
Big business lovers, free enterprise supporters, haters of government control, please read the following VERY slowly and carefully:
1. FEW here disregard the clear laws of supply/demand - it's rather obvious even to the under educated and foolish guys like us, that IF supply is radically increased, or demand substantially reduced, price will fall to some lower level.
BUT, as "stupid" as we are, we ALSO know and recognize that elements of Capitalism and free enterprise CAN - and HAS, in this case, artificially distort and compromise the supply/demand flow as profit-taking middlemen insert themselves BETWEEN the oil producers and the refiners, driving up the price of crude and the resulting price to the consumer.
2. We also fully recognize the graft and corruption rampant in government at virtually ALL levels - foreign interests "bought" our elected representatives LONG before they started driving up fuel costs, and then started buying up our real estate with the profits from increased fuel prices. But to automatically blame ONLY the government for all that, leaving big oil and big business blameless is even MORE foolish than you think WE are! You can bet the bank that all layers of both government AND business are fully in bed together, and having a GREAT time - at the expense of those they supposedly serve...
3. In the past, I have provided NUMEROUS quotes, from guys like OPEC spokesmen, leading stock market spokesmen, The Wall Street journal - as well as others close to the energy and investing business - with even a few of the more honest politicians tossed in for good measure - and they ALL point to the uncontrolled activities of commodities futures traders as a LEADING element in the ARTIFICIALLY increased price of crude oil.
4. This situation is NOT a "natural" effect of conventional supply/demand, but rather, is ARTIFICIAL, and manipulated by individuals and groups who are in NO WAY actually involved in crude oil exploration, production, or refining - their oil "business" is purely on paper, and for middlemen PROFIT - at the EXPENSE of the final consumer!
NOW, while this is in no way pertinent to the subject of this discussion, I, personally, am 71 years old, am a retired production manager of a medium sized California daily newspaper - with a pretty decent exposure and experience in business operations and departmental budgeting - my own departmental budget was over $2,000,000. 00 annually, and involved as many as 36 employees. I retired with an excellent pension, and with other supporting investments, am ANYTHING but the "poor, disappointed and unhappy old man" one of my leading critics loves to paint me as part of his flawed and abusive "debate strategy"...:-laf
BUT, I *am* concerned, and have appropriate compassion for those who are NOT in my relatively comfortable position - nor do I automatically blame them for their position due to their own "poor management" of finances, occupations or business choices. They, for the most part, made the best choices available to them at the time - but the playing field has been ARTIFICIALLY slanted, seriously changing their situations - JUST AS it has outfits like General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler!
If outfits like THOSE - with hordes of in-house accountants and financial planners and managers - are having difficulties meeting the challenges of a rapidly changing economy, why is it so hard to understand smaller businesses and families having the same problems?
BUT, of course, it's good salve for the soul and conscience to simply claim they all "brought it on themselves", than to admit that there just MIGHT be something less than honest, moral, and above board, artificially manipulating the financial conditions of our nation and society...
OH, and:
5. For sure, continued reliance upon an essentially non-renewable source like fossil fuels is undoubtedly foolish, and WILL have to come to an end - but I, for one, greatly resist and resent the notion that the entire world must meekly accept that inevitable shift, NOT as a needed and properly orchestrated shift to different sources, but rather, purely as a tool to enrich a greedy few, at the expense of the many!
1. FEW here disregard the clear laws of supply/demand - it's rather obvious even to the under educated and foolish guys like us, that IF supply is radically increased, or demand substantially reduced, price will fall to some lower level.
BUT, as "stupid" as we are, we ALSO know and recognize that elements of Capitalism and free enterprise CAN - and HAS, in this case, artificially distort and compromise the supply/demand flow as profit-taking middlemen insert themselves BETWEEN the oil producers and the refiners, driving up the price of crude and the resulting price to the consumer.
2. We also fully recognize the graft and corruption rampant in government at virtually ALL levels - foreign interests "bought" our elected representatives LONG before they started driving up fuel costs, and then started buying up our real estate with the profits from increased fuel prices. But to automatically blame ONLY the government for all that, leaving big oil and big business blameless is even MORE foolish than you think WE are! You can bet the bank that all layers of both government AND business are fully in bed together, and having a GREAT time - at the expense of those they supposedly serve...
3. In the past, I have provided NUMEROUS quotes, from guys like OPEC spokesmen, leading stock market spokesmen, The Wall Street journal - as well as others close to the energy and investing business - with even a few of the more honest politicians tossed in for good measure - and they ALL point to the uncontrolled activities of commodities futures traders as a LEADING element in the ARTIFICIALLY increased price of crude oil.
4. This situation is NOT a "natural" effect of conventional supply/demand, but rather, is ARTIFICIAL, and manipulated by individuals and groups who are in NO WAY actually involved in crude oil exploration, production, or refining - their oil "business" is purely on paper, and for middlemen PROFIT - at the EXPENSE of the final consumer!
NOW, while this is in no way pertinent to the subject of this discussion, I, personally, am 71 years old, am a retired production manager of a medium sized California daily newspaper - with a pretty decent exposure and experience in business operations and departmental budgeting - my own departmental budget was over $2,000,000. 00 annually, and involved as many as 36 employees. I retired with an excellent pension, and with other supporting investments, am ANYTHING but the "poor, disappointed and unhappy old man" one of my leading critics loves to paint me as part of his flawed and abusive "debate strategy"...
:-lafBUT, I *am* concerned, and have appropriate compassion for those who are NOT in my relatively comfortable position - nor do I automatically blame them for their position due to their own "poor management" of finances, occupations or business choices. They, for the most part, made the best choices available to them at the time - but the playing field has been ARTIFICIALLY slanted, seriously changing their situations - JUST AS it has outfits like General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler!
If outfits like THOSE - with hordes of in-house accountants and financial planners and managers - are having difficulties meeting the challenges of a rapidly changing economy, why is it so hard to understand smaller businesses and families having the same problems?
BUT, of course, it's good salve for the soul and conscience to simply claim they all "brought it on themselves", than to admit that there just MIGHT be something less than honest, moral, and above board, artificially manipulating the financial conditions of our nation and society...
OH, and:
5. For sure, continued reliance upon an essentially non-renewable source like fossil fuels is undoubtedly foolish, and WILL have to come to an end - but I, for one, greatly resist and resent the notion that the entire world must meekly accept that inevitable shift, NOT as a needed and properly orchestrated shift to different sources, but rather, purely as a tool to enrich a greedy few, at the expense of the many!
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The "middlemen" may have a large part in the pace of the rapid price escalation but it should be noted that they have only two strategies. 1) Buy low and sell high (this is them betting that the price is lower today than it will be tomorrow or at some other date certain in the future. ) or 2) Bet that the price will be lower tomorrow or whatever other future date certain than it is today and therefor "sell short. " Their profit is in the margin either way.
If supplies are increased OR if it is made crystal clear that they soon will be --- dramatically so, and it becomes obvious that the price will fall, these "middlemen" are going to abandon any long positions they hold in approximately the time it takes to push the sell button.
When everyone sells short, the price will fall like a rock. And remember, for every seller, there must be a buyer. In many cases these buyers are large actual users of whatever commodity we're talking about, in this case oil and its derivatives -- FUEL. If those large, near-end or end users are convinced the price is dropping, they won't be buying until it does, forcing even faster collapse of the price. It's the herd mentality, in part, which is the same mentality that drove the prices up. They can fall just as fast or faster.
The point is that this circumstance has been "talked-up" and it can be "talked down" in large measure, with no actual supply increase at the time. It just has to be clear that it's coming.
Remember the Northridge earthquake and how it totally demolished many of the freeways and bridges in southern California? Remember also how the repairs were done far ahead of schedule and even far ahead of any pace that anyone thought possible?
That was because the contractors were incentified to "get-er-done. "
They made millions by beating anyone's best estimate of how long it was going to take ... and the people were the winners.
That example is exactly what should be happening now. The people who know how to do this stuff, Big Oil, the "Big Nuke" builders and the Haliburton's of the world, should be incentified to make this country energy self sufficient.
They should be "given the duty" so to speak and told that their reasonable plans going forward would be fast-tracked rather than hindered at every turn by "Big Government" which is bigger than big oil and big nuke put together -- and more sinister.
Tell them, "We want full self sufficiency, (which would have to be defined clearly) in 5 years" or whatever time-frame seems doable. "Every day you beat that target by, you get $1 Billion. Every day you miss it by, it costs you the same. It'd happen, and it'd happen quick!
Those big, rich companies would get even bigger and richer and it would be cheap in comparison and benefit every American consumer.
That's what I don't understand, why people want to cut off their nose to spite their face! Why hate 'em because they're making $$$$? It's what they're supposed to do!
"We'll show 'em boy!" "We'll tax them right out of business and nationalize their companies and then we'll run 'em and we'll do it right 'cuz we know more about what's fair than they do and they'll rue the day they messed with us, boy! We'll show em!"
And what you'll actually end up with is a "cluster-f***" that is FUBAR to the max! Shorter supplies, less efficiency, higher costs, rationing --- collapse. Jimmy Carterism.
Whatever happened to the "American Way?" Many of the absolute largest businesses began or were launched to the forefront in WWII. Yeah, they got big and rich but WE WON!
The American people were the biggest winners and were also made beneficiary to all that those huge businesses have literally made possible ever since.
And now these nit-wits want to bring "change" to all that. We need change all right, we need to vote them out of their little fiefdoms and return them to the real world.
The motivation of big business is simply self interest and basically greed. They want to make money ... it's what they do and they do it by meeting the needs of their customers (the people) at a profit. They do it by providing choices, making progress, improving what was and inventing and re-inventing new ways to do things better -- continually. Competition makes them do that, because they know if they don't, someone else will.
Big Government, on the other hand, wants to control you! It wants to limit your choices down to one -- theirs. It breeds stagnation, malaise and failure and it creates -- nothing --and it demands to be paid for it.
The changes we need aren't more socialism and ever more bloated government and it's bureaucrats controlling our every move -- its to get back on course to what made this country great --- and yes, a few people filthy stinking rich --- to the benefit of the entire world.
If supplies are increased OR if it is made crystal clear that they soon will be --- dramatically so, and it becomes obvious that the price will fall, these "middlemen" are going to abandon any long positions they hold in approximately the time it takes to push the sell button.
When everyone sells short, the price will fall like a rock. And remember, for every seller, there must be a buyer. In many cases these buyers are large actual users of whatever commodity we're talking about, in this case oil and its derivatives -- FUEL. If those large, near-end or end users are convinced the price is dropping, they won't be buying until it does, forcing even faster collapse of the price. It's the herd mentality, in part, which is the same mentality that drove the prices up. They can fall just as fast or faster.
The point is that this circumstance has been "talked-up" and it can be "talked down" in large measure, with no actual supply increase at the time. It just has to be clear that it's coming.
Remember the Northridge earthquake and how it totally demolished many of the freeways and bridges in southern California? Remember also how the repairs were done far ahead of schedule and even far ahead of any pace that anyone thought possible?
That was because the contractors were incentified to "get-er-done. "
They made millions by beating anyone's best estimate of how long it was going to take ... and the people were the winners.
That example is exactly what should be happening now. The people who know how to do this stuff, Big Oil, the "Big Nuke" builders and the Haliburton's of the world, should be incentified to make this country energy self sufficient.
They should be "given the duty" so to speak and told that their reasonable plans going forward would be fast-tracked rather than hindered at every turn by "Big Government" which is bigger than big oil and big nuke put together -- and more sinister.
Tell them, "We want full self sufficiency, (which would have to be defined clearly) in 5 years" or whatever time-frame seems doable. "Every day you beat that target by, you get $1 Billion. Every day you miss it by, it costs you the same. It'd happen, and it'd happen quick!
Those big, rich companies would get even bigger and richer and it would be cheap in comparison and benefit every American consumer.
That's what I don't understand, why people want to cut off their nose to spite their face! Why hate 'em because they're making $$$$? It's what they're supposed to do!
"We'll show 'em boy!" "We'll tax them right out of business and nationalize their companies and then we'll run 'em and we'll do it right 'cuz we know more about what's fair than they do and they'll rue the day they messed with us, boy! We'll show em!"
And what you'll actually end up with is a "cluster-f***" that is FUBAR to the max! Shorter supplies, less efficiency, higher costs, rationing --- collapse. Jimmy Carterism.
Whatever happened to the "American Way?" Many of the absolute largest businesses began or were launched to the forefront in WWII. Yeah, they got big and rich but WE WON!
The American people were the biggest winners and were also made beneficiary to all that those huge businesses have literally made possible ever since.
And now these nit-wits want to bring "change" to all that. We need change all right, we need to vote them out of their little fiefdoms and return them to the real world.
The motivation of big business is simply self interest and basically greed. They want to make money ... it's what they do and they do it by meeting the needs of their customers (the people) at a profit. They do it by providing choices, making progress, improving what was and inventing and re-inventing new ways to do things better -- continually. Competition makes them do that, because they know if they don't, someone else will.
Big Government, on the other hand, wants to control you! It wants to limit your choices down to one -- theirs. It breeds stagnation, malaise and failure and it creates -- nothing --and it demands to be paid for it.
The changes we need aren't more socialism and ever more bloated government and it's bureaucrats controlling our every move -- its to get back on course to what made this country great --- and yes, a few people filthy stinking rich --- to the benefit of the entire world.
I think this forum is becoming more united in its thinking. This isnt a bi-partisan issue, its global economics, and it needs America to step to the plate and do what it has done countless times before, set the standard in global independence (in this case in energy production) and use that cutting edge tech to regain its former "super power" glory. This time maybe in a "positive and leading" role rather than a "flexing military might" role. or we'll be selling the armaments for food in the next 10yrs!!
DCreed,
What you wrote above is very reasonable and I commend you for it, but I have to disagree with your last sentence.
During the previous administration we had a series of escalating attacks on our nation, our people, our warship, and our embassies on foreign soil. After we invaded Iraq there has not been even one attack on our country or our citizens. No one likes the loss of life or the cost of conducting a war but sometimes wars are necessary to defend our people and our interests.
One of the great things about the Iraq war is tens of thousands of Muslim terrorists have traveled to Iraq to meet our troops and die. Those same terrorists, if not occupied in Iraq, might have conducted or attempted attacks on innocent citizens here in our country.
What you wrote above is very reasonable and I commend you for it, but I have to disagree with your last sentence.
During the previous administration we had a series of escalating attacks on our nation, our people, our warship, and our embassies on foreign soil. After we invaded Iraq there has not been even one attack on our country or our citizens. No one likes the loss of life or the cost of conducting a war but sometimes wars are necessary to defend our people and our interests.
One of the great things about the Iraq war is tens of thousands of Muslim terrorists have traveled to Iraq to meet our troops and die. Those same terrorists, if not occupied in Iraq, might have conducted or attempted attacks on innocent citizens here in our country.
Big business lovers, free enterprise supporters, haters of government control, please read the following VERY slowly and carefully:
1. FEW here disregard the clear laws of supply/demand - it's rather obvious even to the under educated and foolish guys like us, that IF supply is radically increased, or demand substantially reduced, price will fall to some lower level.
BUT, as "stupid" as we are, we ALSO know and recognize that elements of Capitalism and free enterprise CAN - and HAS, in this case, artificially distort and compromise the supply/demand flow as profit-taking middlemen insert themselves BETWEEN the oil producers and the refiners, driving up the price of crude and the resulting price to the consumer.
2. We also fully recognize the graft and corruption rampant in government at virtually ALL levels - foreign interests "bought" our elected representatives LONG before they started driving up fuel costs, and then started buying up our real estate with the profits from increased fuel prices. But to automatically blame ONLY the government for all that, leaving big oil and big business blameless is even MORE foolish than you think WE are! You can bet the bank that all layers of both government AND business are fully in bed together, and having a GREAT time - at the expense of those they supposedly serve...
3. In the past, I have provided NUMEROUS quotes, from guys like OPEC spokesmen, leading stock market spokesmen, The Wall Street journal - as well as others close to the energy and investing business - with even a few of the more honest politicians tossed in for good measure - and they ALL point to the uncontrolled activities of commodities futures traders as a LEADING element in the ARTIFICIALLY increased price of crude oil.
4. This situation is NOT a "natural" effect of conventional supply/demand, but rather, is ARTIFICIAL, and manipulated by individuals and groups who are in NO WAY actually involved in crude oil exploration, production, or refining - their oil "business" is purely on paper, and for middlemen PROFIT - at the EXPENSE of the final consumer!
NOW, while this is in no way pertinent to the subject of this discussion, I, personally, am 71 years old, am a retired production manager of a medium sized California daily newspaper - with a pretty decent exposure and experience in business operations and departmental budgeting - my own departmental budget was over $2,000,000. 00 annually, and involved as many as 36 employees. I retired with an excellent pension, and with other supporting investments, am ANYTHING but the "poor, disappointed and unhappy old man" one of my leading critics loves to paint me as part of his flawed and abusive "debate strategy"...
BUT, I *am* concerned, and have appropriate compassion for those who are NOT in my relatively comfortable position - nor do I automatically blame them for their position due to their own "poor management" of finances, occupations or business choices. They, for the most part, made the best choices available to them at the time - but the playing field has been ARTIFICIALLY slanted, seriously changing their situations - JUST AS it has outfits like General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler!
If outfits like THOSE - with hordes of in-house accountants and financial planners and managers - are having difficulties meeting the challenges of a rapidly changing economy, why is it so hard to understand smaller businesses and families having the same problems?
BUT, of course, it's good salve for the soul and conscience to simply claim they all "brought it on themselves", than to admit that there just MIGHT be something less than honest, moral, and above board, artificially manipulating the financial conditions of our nation and society...
OH, and:
5. For sure, continued reliance upon an essentially non-renewable source like fossil fuels is undoubtedly foolish, and WILL have to come to an end - but I, for one, greatly resist and resent the notion that the entire world must meekly accept that inevitable shift, NOT as a needed and properly orchestrated shift to different sources, but rather, purely as a tool to enrich a greedy few, at the expense of the many!
Gary,
You don't really have any idea what speculators do. You're just angrily ranting about the nonsense you've heard from the liberal media. A huge company like, for example, an oil producing company, must be able to predict availability of crude oil in the quantities they require and to know what the price will be over a period of time to allow normal business planning. Speculators purchase and provide. Speculators smooth out and prevent rapid and harmful price and availability fluctuations in the market place. Speculator are considered heros in the agricultural industry because they are credited with keeping commodity prices up. Speculators take risks and are rewarded for their efforts. They are necessary, essential in several industries. What they do is basic capitalism. I don't resent the rewards they earn any more than I resent what Bill Gates earns.
The more you rant and rave the more clear it is that what you don't like is capitalism. Capitalism rewards the best and brightest, the best educated, the most ambitious, the most productive, the risk takers. In general capitalism rewards those who successfully make things happen for the good of all citizens. Unfortunately in the eyes of some like you, those citizens who do not fit one of the categories I mentioned above, receive fewer rewards from our capitalist system and that creates envy and resentment in some. Capitalism built this great country. It created incredible wealth and a wonderful standard of living for all of us. Even our poorest, laziest welfare recipients live a far grander lifestyle than most citizens of third world countries. I believe in it unquestionably. Some, like you, are fond of throwing around terms like unfettered capitalism and claiming it is bad and should be controlled. By who? By govenment hacks? Can you identify a single senator or representative that has demonstrated that he or she can successfully run a large and vital corporation? Would you trust a representative or senator to run your personal investments or finances? I wouldn't trust one of them to mow my grass.
The economic system you apparently advocate as a replacement, distributes misery and poverty evenly across the citizenry except for the government elite who make the decisions.
I grew up poor but many years ago I developed a fundamental understanding of the way our capitalist economic system works and decided not to be one of the miserable, not one of the whiners, but to join the ranks of those who are rewarded by capitalism. Anyone can choose to do it if willing to earn success. I don't envy or resent those more successful or more wealthy than I am. I admire them and commend them for their success.
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I just couldn't resist posting a reply. This thread has taken me back to the break room before I retired. The so-called liberals declaring their side of things and the so called conservatives declaring their side of things. Everyone knew that no one was going to change their position but I guess everyone felt better after they had vented. Me, I am a moderate (road kill as Rush would put it). I can see good ideas in just about all the posts and a bunch of crap in almost all the posts. I have come to the general conclusion over the years that a conservative can be much viler with their arguments than a liberal. If I had a dollar for every time I have heard someone say that a poor person is poor because of the bad decisions they made in life I could have a much better retirement.
Why not open up maybe 10% of the ANWR and let it be produced? It would either prove it was bad for the environment or debunk the environmentalists' claims. A small percentage of the outer shelf? I live in Oklahoma and have a shut-in oil well within 60 feet of my house. I am used to the casing head gas leaking out of the well but visitors say, “what is that”? Oil spills on the beaches will be a long way from me and why should I care what happens in Alaska. As long as it lowers the price of gas and diesel I should be OK with it, right? My little boat will not be affected. Like most of the posters on this thread I must have made the right decisions and have a pretty comfortable retirement and can afford the gas and diesel but not everyone can. I have not made up my mind who I will vote for yet (yes, another benefit of being a moderate). I will listen to the debates and see the platforms first. I do think the oil companies are paying more income tax now than they were before the price of oil went up and I know Oklahoma is getting more gross production tax than it was so the oil companies are not getting an entirely free ride as far as taxes are concerned. Once again, I have enjoyed reading the posts on this thread. I do think some are getting quite worked up over it. I can almost imagine the red faces, fingers pounding on the key board as posters respond to someone who has disagreed with their view. Much like tables were pounded on back in the break room. The neat thing about it was that we all went back to work together went out to lunch together and were friends. Next break may take on religion and the fur would really fly!!
Why not open up maybe 10% of the ANWR and let it be produced? It would either prove it was bad for the environment or debunk the environmentalists' claims. A small percentage of the outer shelf? I live in Oklahoma and have a shut-in oil well within 60 feet of my house. I am used to the casing head gas leaking out of the well but visitors say, “what is that”? Oil spills on the beaches will be a long way from me and why should I care what happens in Alaska. As long as it lowers the price of gas and diesel I should be OK with it, right? My little boat will not be affected. Like most of the posters on this thread I must have made the right decisions and have a pretty comfortable retirement and can afford the gas and diesel but not everyone can. I have not made up my mind who I will vote for yet (yes, another benefit of being a moderate). I will listen to the debates and see the platforms first. I do think the oil companies are paying more income tax now than they were before the price of oil went up and I know Oklahoma is getting more gross production tax than it was so the oil companies are not getting an entirely free ride as far as taxes are concerned. Once again, I have enjoyed reading the posts on this thread. I do think some are getting quite worked up over it. I can almost imagine the red faces, fingers pounding on the key board as posters respond to someone who has disagreed with their view. Much like tables were pounded on back in the break room. The neat thing about it was that we all went back to work together went out to lunch together and were friends. Next break may take on religion and the fur would really fly!!
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TFucili
TDR MEMBER
Harvey,
The futures markets did a pretty fine job for a long time. It is only recently, with the alterations engineered by Ken Lay & his merry band, and with the complicity of the CFTC that thing shave spun out of control. I can't speak for Gary, but I am reasonably certain that he is not suggesting the Comrade Bushinsky National Oil Company be created. It's not about onerous governmental control, it is about restoring the oversights that HAD ALREADY BEEN IN PLACE, and seemed to work. Why is it that the speculators you laud as such fine upstanding choir boys, can't trade on the open markets? Why did they have to create a totally opaque system to obfuscate things? Open markets should, indeed, be open. Sunlight is the best antiseptic. Reasonable oversight is neither socialism, nor overbearing control, it is common sense measures to insure the table is not rigged.
The futures markets did a pretty fine job for a long time. It is only recently, with the alterations engineered by Ken Lay & his merry band, and with the complicity of the CFTC that thing shave spun out of control. I can't speak for Gary, but I am reasonably certain that he is not suggesting the Comrade Bushinsky National Oil Company be created. It's not about onerous governmental control, it is about restoring the oversights that HAD ALREADY BEEN IN PLACE, and seemed to work. Why is it that the speculators you laud as such fine upstanding choir boys, can't trade on the open markets? Why did they have to create a totally opaque system to obfuscate things? Open markets should, indeed, be open. Sunlight is the best antiseptic. Reasonable oversight is neither socialism, nor overbearing control, it is common sense measures to insure the table is not rigged.
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
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FREE!
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Renew
Subscribe
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Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
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Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
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