FED UP with fuel prices?

[RGardner]

The deregulating of the futures trading (Enron loophole) has changed the markets from a true market hedging tool as it should be to a speculators dream come true! Being able to purchase contracts at 6% gives them the ability to control roughly 16 times the amount of product that they could before the deregulation.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Interesting quote from one of today's media lead stories, related to crude oil prices and the world-wide economical crises it is creating - my comments in RED:

But Saudi officials have argued that the market is sufficiently supplied and that market speculation -- billions of dollars in financial investments in oil by investors hedging against a weakening U. S. dollar -- is the primary force driving up prices.



At the meeting Sunday, Saudi Arabia, the world's top oil exporter, is expected to ask for measures to control market speculation in futures exchanges, where oil prices are set. The Saudis have also said high government taxes on fuel (largely in European countries, where fuel taxation rates are FAR higher than ours in the USA) and other geopolitical forces, such as instability in oil-producing countries including Iraq, Nigeria and Iran, were putting pressure on prices.



NAHHhhhh - the Saudis have it all WRONG - current crude oil pricing is TOTALLY governed by pure supply/demand - and taxation and futures traders have absolutely NOTHING to do with it... :-laf:-laf



"We're striving for stable oil prices. There are many reasons for the problem and its causes, and our view is that it needs cooperation from all sides in many areas. It's not possible for just one side to provide the solution for this problem," Saudi Arabia's deputy oil minister, Prince Salman bin Abdul-Aziz, told reporters.



Analysts said Saudi Arabia was concerned about high oil prices because despite the cash windfall, they drive up inflation, hurt emerging economies and force countries to look for alternative fuel sources.





TRANSLATION OF THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH: Saudis fear that as world consumers seek to escape being held hostage by out of control fuel costs, they will eventually REPLACE crude oil with alternate energy sources that will leave the Saudis and other oil producing countries with a product the world no longer needs in large quantities - and at prices they no longer can control.

Just one of MANY similar stories from individuals close to oil production and stock market activities, who steadily point out that Commodities futures investors/hedge fund managers, are ARTIFICIALLY controlling the price of crude oil and consumer costs.



And ain't it neat that our current government is bailing out the Mortgage market with BILLIONS of *our* tax dollars dollars - and THOSE companies, looking for more secure investment sources, THEN take that government money, and invest it in crude oil futures for the more secure profit it provides - in other words, major financial investors are using government "bail-out" money against us, to drive up OUR fuel costs... #@$%!

 

[TFucili]

Bailing out those "blow-dried, empty suit"(sorry, couldn't resist)bankers, is no better than bailing out the dimwits with an $8/hr job who thought they could afford a McMansion. Rewarding bad judgement, and, in many cases, outright fraud is a pizz-poor idea no matter which side of the desk they sit on.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Bailing out those "blow-dried, empty suit"(sorry, couldn't resist)bankers, is no better than bailing out the dimwits with an $8/hr job who thought they could afford a McMansion. Rewarding bad judgement, and, in many cases, outright fraud is a pizz-poor idea no matter which side of the desk they sit on.

Perhaps - but what has the fuel cost and economy situation done to the value of YOUR diesel truck? Is it worth what it WOULD have been if the economy hadn't made so radical a change for the worse - were YOU a fool for buying it? If you lost your job and income because of the sagging economy, and had to sell your truck, would you get it's true book value - or have to sell at a loss - or worse, let it be repossessed?



It's REAL easy to toss rocks and abuse at those "other" guys for THEIR "foolishness" - but I suspect MANY of them, just like YOU, bought what they COULD afford at the time, but even though THEY did not change, the economy - out of their control - DID change, and took them down with it, just as it can ANY of us!



Another dandy quote from today's news:



Obama calls for oil crackdown - Mike Allen - Politico.com



.

 

[HBarlow]

Bailing out those "blow-dried, empty suit"(sorry, couldn't resist)bankers, is no better than bailing out the dimwits with an $8/hr job who thought they could afford a McMansion. Rewarding bad judgement, and, in many cases, outright fraud is a pizz-poor idea no matter which side of the desk they sit on.

I agree with you. My position is let them all go down the toilet. It doesn't matter if you were a blue collar worker, a bigtime banker, or a crooked politician, if you were living beyond your means or taking advantage of your position and got caught, you pay the price. If your company failed and you can't find a job, move or go work where a job is. It is not my responsibility or that of any other citizen to pay for everyone else's bad judgement or misfortune.



When I owned a bunch of rental houses and big investors started building hundred, perhaps thousands of apartments in my tenant market and took away much of the demand for my houses, I didn't ask for and nobody suggested a bail out for me. I solved my own problem. I reduced the rents and kept them rented and ran 400,000 miles in less than three years delivering trailers to retire my mortgages. I'm not whining. I feel good about solving my own problem.



Recent news articles not reported in the liberal media report that a number of prominent democrat senators including Conrad of SD (or ND?) and Dodd of CT and other prominent hack democrats who served in the slickwillie administratioin received favorably treatment in the form of discounted and no points home mortgage loans from the failing CountryWide, formerly a mega-mortgage lender, and are the ones who introduced and back the bail out bill for CountryWide. Just a coincidence, I guess.

 

[WOT]

Perhaps - but what has the fuel cost and economy situation done to the value of YOUR diesel truck? Is it worth what it WOULD have been if the economy hadn't made so radical a change for the worse - were YOU a fool for buying it? If you lost your job and income because of the sagging economy, and had to sell your truck, would you get it's true book value - or have to sell at a loss - or worse, let it be repossessed?



It's REAL easy to toss rocks and abuse at those "other" guys for THEIR "foolishness" - but I suspect MANY of them, just like YOU, bought what they COULD afford at the time, but even though THEY did not change, the economy - out of their control - DID change, and took them down with it, just as it can ANY of us!



Another dandy quote from today's news:



Obama calls for oil crackdown - Mike Allen - Politico.com



.

I think there's a major difference here... Everyone with a lick of sense KNOWS ANY VEHICLE they buy will only DROP in value and eventually be practically worthless. They know going in they should only buy what they can afford and live with losing practically all of their money spent to purchase it. Most people expect there houses to go UP in value. If I couldn't afford to lose 100% of what I paid for vehicle then I wouldn't buy it even if someone offered be a killer loan. People willing to GAMBLE on the housing market by getting interest only loans or the like should be responsible for their own decisions. Why should my taxes help bail them out? Should I get some money back from people who gambled on the housing market and make boatloads of money?



Don't get me wrong, I know the economy tanking is out of everyones control but if you are buying something and think to yourself it is too good to be true, it probably is.

 

[HBarlow]

I frequently read posts by other members who refer to the "economy tanking" or the bad economy. That is simply not true. The economy is certainly not great. It has slowed due to high fuel costs and the problem of so many people who were living grand on adjustable rate mortgages and are now surrendering or losing their homes to foreclosure but the economy is not in a recession nationwide.



The truth is we are not and have not been in a recession and the economy has actually grown a tiny bit most if not all recent months. A "recession" is defined as "three consecutive months of negative economic growth. " We have not had that situation, yet at least.



The economy is bad in certain regions of the country but that is related to certain industries, labor issues, or political issues.

 

[AClayton]

I think there's a major difference here... Everyone with a lick of sense KNOWS ANY VEHICLE they buy will only DROP in value and eventually be practically worthless. They know going in they should only buy what they can afford and live with losing practically all of their money spent to purchase it. Most people expect there houses to go UP in value. If I couldn't afford to lose 100% of what I paid for vehicle then I wouldn't buy it even if someone offered be a killer loan. People willing to GAMBLE on the housing market by getting interest only loans or the like should be responsible for their own decisions. Why should my taxes help bail them out? Should I get some money back from people who gambled on the housing market and make boatloads of money?



Don't get me wrong, I know the economy tanking is out of everyones control but if you are buying something and think to yourself it is too good to be true, it probably is.

I may be wrong,but I think what Gary was trying to say was that our CTD trucks would be worth more if the fuel wasn't so high. Our RV's would be worth more today... . if the fuel wasn't so high. We all know that vehicles lose their value over time and even after initial purchase... . the point was that they would be worth more if fuel costs weren't so high.

 

[WOT]

I may be wrong,but I think what Gary was trying to say was that our CTD trucks would be worth more if the fuel wasn't so high. Our RV's would be worth more today... . if the fuel wasn't so high. We all know that vehicles lose their value over time and even after initial purchase... . the point was that they would be worth more if fuel costs weren't so high.

Sorry if I read more into it... I would agree, if fuel prices weren't so high there would certainly be more buyers out there for fuel hungry vehicles which would mean they would be worth more...

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I may be wrong,but I think what Gary was trying to say was that our CTD trucks would be worth more if the fuel wasn't so high. Our RV's would be worth more today... . if the fuel wasn't so high. We all know that vehicles lose their value over time and even after initial purchase... . the point was that they would be worth more if fuel costs weren't so high.

BINGO!



You got it!



Blaming home owners for the loss of their homes thru the unexpected loss of incomes, combined with rise in cost of living and falling home prices that cause the loss of those homes thru inability to find buyers willing to pay what is then a balance higher than the home is then appraised, is hardly the fault of the home buyer - any more than the devaluation of our OWN homes, trucks and various RV's for the same reason. The homeowners did the same as the rest of us - bought based upon the conditions that were then in existence at the time - and none of us can see the future!



Unfairly blaming them for their situation - one we ALL are experiencing in one way or another, to one degree or another, is hardly fair in most cases...



God knows, my own home, RV and vehicles have ALL been hit with unforeseen lowering in value, as all other costs of living have increased - but all our stuff is long since paid for, and none for sale - so we're untouched, other than other rising costs of goods and services needed for everyday living. We can easily handle that in our situation - others aren't so lucky, thru little fault of their own...



Patting myself on the back for my "vast wisdom and planning", as I smugly blame those "foolish" others for their situation, is hardly fair or compassionate...

 

[JesseJ]

BINGO!



Patting myself on the back for my "vast wisdom and planning", as I smugly blame those "foolish" others for their situation, is hardly fair or compassionate...

I have a very hard time feeling sorry for someone who bought more house than they could really afford, were dumb enough to get hoodwinked into a bad loan, or have debt up to their eyeballs besides their homes. They were foolish and now they have to fix their own mess. Is it fair? No it isn't. But thats life. That's how you teach your kids. If they fail at something or make a mistake, maybe they'll learn their lesson and won't do it again. I don't think my tax dollars should be used to bail out someones mortgage when they couldn't afford it in the first place while I had enough common sense to not buy a house until I have enough money saved and can actually afford it.



Gary- You shouldn't feel quilty for using common sense and proper planning without the governments help while others used no common sense or planning and then cry for someone to bail them out after they screwed up.

 

[DCreed]

My friend bought her house 4yrs ago and paid 30k down from her last house when she moved. Now the market has tanked around here and she needs to replace her roof so she had her house appraised and it is now almost 50k LESS than when she bought it!! If she had to sell ALL her equity is GONE!! How do you prudently plan for that?

 

[JesseJ]

Why did she need her house appraised to replace the roof? Does she need a home equity loan to pay for the roof? That's what a savings account is for. Regardless, if she doesn't HAVE to sell the house then who cares? Houses should be considered long term investments for the money you have to put into them. Thinking along those lines, it's a long term investment, the price will have fluctuations up and down but it will steadily increase in value. I realize people are not staying in one place as much now, and that is getting harder and harder to do, moving for jobs, moving closer to family, moving farther away from family :-laf etc.

 

[DCreed]

The point is , she should have +40k in equity and now doesnt. and the market is still going down as all the foreclosures set in. If she did have a financial hardship she would lose her home because it is already worth so much less than what she put into it. She is in her fourtys and is worried about retirement if this decline continues. She bought a home as most do as an investment towards retirement security, as you stated SHOULD be worth MORE in the long run . but HOW LONG? it has dropped near 50k in a couple years where will it be in 10? It is easy to tell others they should have planned better. I have another friend who just got MS, how do you plan for that? what if your doctor told you tomorrow you had cancer and will die in 6 mos? I hope you planned for the rest of your family's lives! just something to think about while passing quick judgement on others decisions.

 

[JesseJ]

That's why I have a savings account. It's for emergencies. As for your other things, that's why you have short and long term disability insurance, and if I die of cancer in 6 months, my wife will be rich because I have life insurance. Hope for the best BUT prepare for the worst. That's what I've always been taught. I may not get everything I want, I may have to wait a long time to get something I want. But, it's better than getting in over my head and being in a bad situation.

Did you know that in 1929 only 2% of the homes in this country had mortgages on them and by 1962 only 2% DID NOT? It began a long long time ago, but there has been a colossal shift of thinking on money from being conservative and saving up for everything and actually waiting to a I-want-it-now mentality. Marketers have done an absolutely amazing job at convincing people that whatever they're selling, they need it now and can't wait for it. Delayed gratification is a term that most people don't know or understand anymore. And it's not just "quick judgment on one persons financial decisions" unfortunately, it's most everyone these days.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Seems we often stampede to applaud the risk takers - the brash individuals who got a business started on a shoestring, gambled everything - and were successful beyond all expectations.



YET, when a young family does the same, sees an opportunity and takes the risk, only to lose due to unusual and unforeseen circumstances beyond their expectations, control, and the range of their crystal ball, some rush in with the "blame game".



Don't lose sight that the government bailouts are for the *mortgage companies* - many of the home buyers lost EVERYTHING, their home, their equity, it's all GONE - and no one is "bailing" THEM out!



Early in our married life, my wife and I lived on a shoestring, due to low income in those early years with no job training and fresh out of the Army in 1957. Yeah, we got by, took a few chances as we reached up and out of the financial pinch of those early years - and there CERTAINLY was no help from family or friends to speak of - and NONE from the government.



As soon as we could scrape up the $$$, we bought our first home - I advanced in the company I worked for - income increased - and so did our equity and ambition. For us, the risks in attempting to improve ourselves and our circumstances paid off - but the risks could have as easily gone the other way - and WOULD have, if we had faced the economic conditions happening all around us today!



I've never forgotten where I came from and went thru - never will - and I, for one, will NEVER look down upon or criticise others going thru the same thing today - except for the Grace of God - it could as easily be ME!



.

 

[JesseJ]

I completely agree with you Gary. My opinion (and remember that's all it is) is that there is a difference between risk takers who go out of their comfort zone to try and better themselves or their family and people who just don't plan well. Even something as simple as a budget is lost on most people today. Their in debt up to their eyeballs and one small emergency from a disaster.

I am taking a huge risk in packing up the family and looking for a job 800 miles away in the booming natural gas industry in western Co. I believe it may be a pay cut to begin with but worth it in the long run. I could be wrong, for sure, but if all else fails, I can fall back on being a diesel mechanic again. I think those are two industries that won't be going out of business any time soon. I, like you, always keep in mind, "but for the grace of God, go I. " I count His many blessings every day.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I completely agree with you Gary. My opinion (and remember that's all it is) is that there is a difference between risk takers who go out of their comfort zone to try and better themselves or their family and people who just don't plan well. Even something as simple as a budget is lost on most people today. Their in debt up to their eyeballs and one small emergency from a disaster.

I am taking a huge risk in packing up the family and looking for a job 800 miles away in the booming natural gas industry in western Co. I believe it may be a pay cut to begin with but worth it in the long run. I could be wrong, for sure, but if all else fails, I can fall back on being a diesel mechanic again. I think those are two industries that won't be going out of business any time soon. I, like you, always keep in mind, "but for the grace of God, go I. " I count His many blessings every day.

Agreed - and best of luck to you!

 

[JesseJ]

Kind of scary, I've only lived in one place my whole life, this would all be new to me. Have to get used to all sorts of things.

 

[HBarlow]

I completely agree with you Gary. My opinion (and remember that's all it is) is that there is a difference between risk takers who go out of their comfort zone to try and better themselves or their family and people who just don't plan well. Even something as simple as a budget is lost on most people today. Their in debt up to their eyeballs and one small emergency from a disaster.

I am taking a huge risk in packing up the family and looking for a job 800 miles away in the booming natural gas industry in western Co. I believe it may be a pay cut to begin with but worth it in the long run. I could be wrong, for sure, but if all else fails, I can fall back on being a diesel mechanic again. I think those are two industries that won't be going out of business any time soon. I, like you, always keep in mind, "but for the grace of God, go I. " I count His many blessings every day.

JesseJ,



I admire you for looking into the future and facing it headon. It takes courage and conviction to uproot and leave a comfortable surrounding to face an uncertain future in order to better yourself and provide a better life for your family.



But, having read your posts, it is clear that you have what it takes to not only survive but to prosper. I wish you the best of luck but I'm confident you won't rely on or need luck. You are the kind of man who makes his own luck. Best wishes.