Ford Super Duty PS, auto shutdown 5 min idle

[TboneMan]

OK, I'll start by saying I'm getting info. second hand so, I don't know a lot of details.



Here's the scenario:



Vol. fire department buys a new light rescue on an '08 Ford Super Duty F450 chassis with a Powerstroke.



Dept. take delivery from vendor (a fire equipment dealer).



Dept. begins training with the apparatus in preparation to put it in service.



Truck consistently shuts down after 5 minutes idling.



Take to chassis supplier (Ford dealer).



Dealer say chassis mistakenly ordered as California Emission package (dept in New York State).



Told that Cali. emissions limits idling to 5 minutes.



Dealer say there's nothing they can do - don't let it idle.



Dept. wants to reject delivery for breach of contract. (members baby sitting downed power lines or a bad wreck at -10F need to leave the truck idling for heat).





Questions:

Does Cali. emissions really limit idle to 5 minutes?



Aren't NYS diesel emissions standards the same as California's (the reason we couldn't get the Jeep Liberty CRD and VW CRDs in NY)?



Couldn't a reflash of the ECM solve the idle limiter?

 

[Grizzly]

If California does in fact have a 5 minute idle law, I'm sure there are exceptions for special vehicle such as a fire equipped truck. After all California has to have fire rescue trucks and run into the same situations.

 

[TFucili]

Running lights and radios while on scene means the truck needs to idle, period! They should contact every TV and radio station they can find and make a bunch of noise. Surely, there's got to be an attorney that will represent a VFD free of charge. They should act quickly. The longer they appear to "make-do" with it, the harder it will be to make a case.

Nancy Pelosi, et al, should try working for a living, instead of making ridiculous, pie-in-the-sky policies.

 

[TboneMan]

Ahh, I found this on DieselNet referencing CARB:



# Commercial diesel vehicles with a GVWR > 10,000 lbs are subject to idling restrictions effective February 1, 2005 [CCR Title 13, Section 2485]. Affected vehicles are required to limit idling to no longer than 5 minutes under most circumstances.



# A rule to further limit idling of new and in-use sleeper berth equipped diesel trucks was adopted on October 20, 2005 (still pending approval by the Office of Administrative Law). The regulation consists of new engine and in-use truck requirements, as well as emission performance requirements for technologies used as alternatives to the truck’s main engine idling. The new engine requirements require MY 2008 and newer heavy-duty diesel engines to be equipped with a non-programmable engine shutdown system that automatically shuts down the engine after 5 minutes of idling or optionally meet a NOx idling emission standard of 30 g/hr. The in-use truck requirements require operators of both in-state and out-of-state registered sleeper berth equipped trucks to manually shut down their engine when idling more than 5 minutes at any location within California beginning in 2008.



Wow, you talk about gov. control!!!



I still think there has to be a re-program the computer.

 

[betterthanstock]

I am not a fan of gov't regs, but I hate idling engines. The best way to improve mpg and reduce pollution, is to have zero idling. Have the engine start with an electric motor as you accelerate away, and have the engine die as soon as you take your foot off the throttle, and coast thru a one-way clutch. Your mpg could go up 30%. Accessories need to be battery operated (P/s, a/c, etc)





Back to the story.

There are several fixes:



remote starter, on board generator, extra deep cycle batteries if not enough, or a guy restarting it every 15-20 minutes, so it won't get too cold/hot.



Automatic starter when batteries get too low, or a brick on the accelerator (figure of speech, an adjustable hand throttle would do), so the computer thinks someone is driving it.

 

[JacobsD]

I am not a fan of gov't regs, but I hate idling engines. The best way to improve mpg and reduce pollution, is to have zero idling. Have the engine start with an electric motor as you accelerate away, and have the engine die as soon as you take your foot off the throttle, and coast thru a one-way clutch. Your mpg could go up 30%. Accessories need to be battery operated (P/s, a/c, etc)

And reduce turbocharger life by 100%?

Imagine going down the highway, hauling up a hill with your truck and 15k on the trailer, and getting to the top of the hill where you can coast down the other side, and having your truck shut off with EGT's around 1000* Not to mention the loss of all engine braking

 

[HPetrat]

And reduce turbocharger life by 100%?



Imagine going down the highway, hauling up a hill with your truck and 15k on the trailer, and getting to the top of the hill where you can coast down the other side, and having your truck shut off with EGT's around 1000* Not to mention the loss of all engine braking

If it is an automatic and is idling, but still in gear(drive) I don't think the engine would shut down.

Same goes for the standard trans. , the engine braking would let the computer know that the truck was moving, and i might suggest that it would have a pick-up from the ABS tone ring.



Beyond that, (and I don't think you are implying this) I certainly hope no one with 15K load on the trailer would "coast" down the hill (is it still called "Mexican Overdrive"?).



HP

 

[jgillott]

Every piece of apparatus we have in our FD has some type of high idle control, either manual or electronic. Does that new truck have one to set pump or generator pto speed? I would assume it would have to unless it doesn't have any pto operated equipment.

 

[AMink]

Does Ford offer the high idle like you can get in a Dodge? What a PIA!

 

[rbattelle]

If it is an automatic and is idling, but still in gear(drive) I don't think the engine would shut down.

Tell them to try idling in neutral instead of park. Maybe the logic assumes the vehicle is in park.



But for the record, I think this kind of intrusion is ridiculous.



Ryan

 

[Missouri Mule]

I like the brick on the go pedal idea. :-laf



Did the moron at the dealer ship really think that a fire dept in NY needed a Cal truck.

Make them take it back and send it to a California fire dept!:-{}

Better yet buy a Dodge chassis/cab 6. 7 and don't worry about it.

 

[Russknh]

The current law in Kalifornia does not apply to a vehicle that has a PTO

 

[JDiepstra]

Sounds like that stealership is in need of some fire safety inspections! I am sure they could drum up a list of violations.

 

[Shelby Griggs]

You can read the CA law here:



http://www.arb. ca.gov/msprog/truck-idling/2485.pdf



Quoting from Subject Top Page: Heavy-Duty Vehicle Idling Emission Reduction Program: "The new engine requirements require 2008 and newer model year heavy-duty diesel engines to be equipped with a non-programmable engine shutdown system that automatically shuts down the engine after five minutes of idling or optionally meet a stringent oxides of nitrogen idling emission standard. "



Ford probably DOES NOT have a provision to turn this off, since it is required to be NON PROGRAMMABLE.



I read this law as applying to ALL vehicles, that "might" enter the state, not just those registered there, so I suspect to be compliant, Ford decided to implement the no idle programming across the board.



ARE THERE SITUATIONS WHEN IDLING IS ALLOWED?

Yes, idling under the following situations is acceptable:

• You are stuck in traffic.

• When idling is necessary for inspecting or servicing your vehicle.

• You are operating a power take-off device.

• You cannot move because of adverse weather conditions or mechanical failure.

• You are queuing (must be beyond 100 feet from any residential area).

• Your truck's engine meets the optional NOx idling emission standard and your truck is located beyond

100 feet from any residential area.



Note that the PTO has to be in use to be exempt.



I am suspicious if the brick on the pedal would work too, since if you read the law, "Idling" means the vehicle engine is running at any location while the vehicle is stationary.



The law applies to any diesel powered vehicle with a GVW over 10K, however pickups are exempt.



Note that at least some engines from Cummins DO MEET the NOx idling standards, and I suspect that the 6. 7 falls in that category, at least the 2010 compliant models.

 

[RAmy]

i thought kaaliforrnia was suppose to have fallen into the ocean by now. sure would take care of a lot of trouble they like to cause

 

[Grizzly]

i thought kaaliforrnia was suppose to have fallen into the ocean by now. sure would take care of a lot of trouble they like to cause

That was a mean thing to say. How would you like it if Minnesota fell into Lake Superior???

 

[mberry]

I don't think so...

i thought kaaliforrnia was suppose to have fallen into the ocean by now. sure would take care of a lot of trouble they like to cause

Sacramento is East of the fault line. It would still be there after "the Big One". It's too bad. I grew up in Northern Cal. near Sac. I won't ever go back if I can avoid it.

 

[Shelby Griggs]

Just ran across this from a 24SEP2007 article:



Cummins also announced that beginning January1, 2008, all its on-highway products will meet the new California Air Resource Board (CARB) idle-reduction regulation. Specifically, the Cummins ISX, ISM, ISL, ISC and ISB engines wall be “Clean Idle” certified “by generating very low NOx emissions at idle. ” The engine maker said that because these engines will have idle NOx emissions of less than 30 grams per hour, they “will be allowed to idle indefinitely” under the new rule.



Looks like the Cummins engines don't need to shut down.