And More Bad RV Industry News Pilgrim is Gone

[HBarlow]

"Pilgrim International to file Chapter 11 bankruptcy this week



(Sept. 16, 2008) -- RV Industry News has learned that plans are underway for Pilgrim International to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection later this week. However, one Pilgrim dealer was told if the company can't put together a financial solution within two weeks, the firm will amend the filing to Chapter 7 and liquidate. "



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



Pilgrim shut down about two months ago with an announcement that they were not bankrupt and would return to business when sales improved in the industry. Either that was spin, wishful thinking, or events overtook their ability to survive.



Not a high-quality unit but Pilgrim was an attractive alternative in the entry level market. Another choice that won't be available when strength returns to the RV industry.

 

[Bob4x4]

I heard Country coach just had a big lay off and the remaining employees are worried



Bob

 

[BigPapa]

So, how many lives have been changed by the high fuel prices so far?



Scott

 

[HBarlow]

So, how many lives have been changed by the high fuel prices so far?



Scott

This thread is about RVs not politics.

 

[Jumbo Jet]

let's see - fuel prices high - RV sales slumping - fuel prices high - RV manufacturers closing the doors - fuel prices high - RV owners staying at home - fuel prices high - RV owners not trading old for new -

Dang, my eye sight is not what it used to be, but I fail to see 'politics' in REALITY.

 

[BrianJ]

Actually, ask any industry insider or analyst and they will not point to fuel prices as the main culprit, rather the financial market crisis and much stricter lending practices.



It is MUCH harder to get an RV loan today than it was as little as 6-12 months ago.



On top of that many would use their home equity to finance luxery items like RV's, but with the housing market tumbling equity is not there anymore, nor the economic stability for people to take the risk buying a "luxery" item like RV's.

 

[HBarlow]

let's see - fuel prices high - RV sales slumping - fuel prices high - RV manufacturers closing the doors - fuel prices high - RV owners staying at home - fuel prices high - RV owners not trading old for new -



Dang, my eye sight is not what it used to be, but I fail to see 'politics' in REALITY.

I could very easily explain it to you but you wouldn't like my explanation.



As I said, this thread is about the RV industry, not about politics.

 

[KBalzuweit]

The rumor is that Pilgrim will be brought back after BK to only build light weight units.

 

[Jumbo Jet]

I could very easily explain it to you but you wouldn't like my explanation.



As I said, this thread is about the RV industry, not about politics.

'splane it Lucy!

 

[Jumbo Jet]

Actually, ask any industry insider or analyst and they will not point to fuel prices as the main culprit, rather the financial market crisis and much stricter lending practices.

It is MUCH harder to get an RV loan today than it was as little as 6-12 months ago.

On top of that many would use their home equity to finance luxery items like RV's, but with the housing market tumbling equity is not there anymore, nor the economic stability for people to take the risk buying a "luxery" item like RV's.

True, true, but at the same time with NASCAR races having fewer fans and RVs showing up. I think current fuel prices are relative to all RV'ing activity - traveling and buying.

 

[HBarlow]

'splane it Lucy!

Jumbo Jet,



As another poster wrote above, the primary issue hurting the RV industry now is tight credit, not fuel prices. Tight credit has meant that folks with high debt to income ratios and marginal credit history who could easily obtain RV purchase loans last year are now locked out of the market. Larger down payments and better credit histories are now required.



Related to the above, many older folks were selling their significantly appreciated homes in high cost real estate markets like SoCal, for example, and buying high dollar motorhomes or MDTs and top of the line fifth wheels and becoming fulltimers. That is not happening much right now because overinflated home values have deflated rapidly recently.



And last, the fuel cost issue that some are fond of blaming on speculators and "greedy oil companies" is, as always, a matter of simple supply and demand. Crude oil prices began increasing rapidly to record levels last year due to the rapid industrialization of China and India and the obvious demand this placed on world crude oil supplies. Americans and others around the world responded to outragious diesel and gasoline prices by cutting back consumption so demand has shrunk. That reduced demand has caused crude oil prices to shrink considerably in recent months and finished products, gasoline and diesel fuel prices, were declining nicely recently until Hurricanes Rita and Ike recently hit the TX and LA Gulf Coast. 20% of our oil refining capacity is on the Gulf Coast and the refineries are shut down and we don't know yet when they will be able to reopen. Crude oil is affordable now but supply and demand in the gas and diesel markets are a challenge. Reducing supplies of gas and diesel has the same effect as increasing demand. So for the immediate future gas and diesel prices will be high once again.



This is a simple explanation.

 

[ChrisOlson]

Looks like HBarlow gave some serious splaneing.

Now being a simpelton myself I had to get out the dictionary and figure out the words in HBarlow response. I found it to be a very well thought and a very educated reply. and I agree with what he has to say. I will add my 2 cents and add my take on this. High fuel prices = record oil companies profits something wrong here. I believe the population is just getting frugal the luxury items that once were the norm are being put off to save the pennies for other important things like the extra money for commuting to work and electric bills and higher cost of daily living costs passed on the to the consumers thru the high costs of fuel associated to the transportation industry.

a simple equation record oil companies profits from high fuel prices = less disposable income to purchase the fun toys that we as working class Americans were used to THUS the RV industry is taking a big hit. I think HBarlow is correct and I think Big Papa is correct and I believe the high Fuel Prices started long before the present financial crisis. Of course the present financial crises is front and center news right now. and this leads to Us working Class Americans being worried and not spending as much of our hard earned dollars on pilgrim RVs

this is just my inane take on things and I apologize for being truculent. And I will apologize for my egregious post here in advance

So Flame On

Have a happy day
I like turtles

 

[Grizzly]

Pilgrim RV's are only rated from 0 to 2 stars and have only been in production since 04. Maybe those are, in part, reasons why they went belly up.

 

[AClayton]

Pilgrim RV's are only rated from 0 to 2 stars and have only been in production since 04. Maybe those are, in part, reasons why they went belly up.

You got it!!!! I have had the unfortunate luck of working on a few of these and the build quality is ..... well..... unfortunate!!

 

[Grizzly]

You got it!!!! I have had the unfortunate luck of working on a few of these and the build quality is ..... well..... unfortunate!!

What other RV's did you work on and which do you believe are the better quality?

 

[AClayton]

I've worked on many different brands and they all have their + and -'s. Winnebago is what I work on the most and only because we belong to a Winnebago specific RV Club.



I would have to say the best 5th Wheel that I have worked on was the Teton Homes model... this particular model came to me after a Thunderstorm had hit and ruined nearly every electrical appliance. The Convection Oven was mounted to a steel girder in the wall and not just the cabinet like so many are. Most of the items requiring regular maintenance were very easy to reach.



Coachmen doesn't really impress me at all..... maybe the Grand Junction.



Forest River doesn't really impress me either... . again,just my opinion!



I have worked on many Lance campers and was actually interested in purchasing one just recently at the Hershey RV Show... . only to be discouraged by the trade-in value of my coach.



I only work on RV's part-time so I don't have a large customer-base. So that in-turn,does not qualify me to be an RV critic if you will. I'm sure that there are several more Quality RV's built that I have not worked on.



I have never been a huge fan of the Fleetwood line of RV's,but after looking at the models at Hershey,it seems they have stepped-up quite favorably.



Any quality RV starts with a rugged frame and under=carraige. Whether it is a MH or trailer or TC. The choice of running gear on a trailer is just as important... as well as how it is attached to the frame. You can have all the best appliances,cabinetry and slide-rooms installed on your trailer and have it mounted on a poorly designed frame and running-gear and have nothing to show for it.

The new chassis for MH's are without a doubt,the best it has been in at least 10 years. Before the new Ford came out in 99' with its 20,500GVW,your options were scarce. The Chevy P-30 was a nightmare to drive... plaqued with handling and over-heating issues. The old F-53 Ford had its issues with wimpy 16" tires and a poorly designed in tank fuel pump. Things were getting better fast and as the GVWR's got higher,the RV manufacturer's got larger. It seems the fuel prices will discourage the larger RV's from being hot sellers in the near future. Workhorse Custom Chassis has announced the Big Block Chevy V-8 will be discontinued for 2010 and replaced with a supercharged version of the 6. 0L. WH Chassis is tight-lipped about HP ratings but logistically I can't see a 6. 0L moving a 26K motorhome around very easily.



Alan

 

[Grizzly]

I've worked on many different brands and they all have their + and -'s. Winnebago is what I work on the most and only because we belong to a Winnebago specific RV Club.



I would have to say the best 5th Wheel that I have worked on was the Teton Homes model... this particular model came to me after a Thunderstorm had hit and ruined nearly every electrical appliance. The Convection Oven was mounted to a steel girder in the wall and not just the cabinet like so many are. Most of the items requiring regular maintenance were very easy to reach.



Coachmen doesn't really impress me at all..... maybe the Grand Junction.



Forest River doesn't really impress me either... . again,just my opinion!



I have worked on many Lance campers and was actually interested in purchasing one just recently at the Hershey RV Show... . only to be discouraged by the trade-in value of my coach.



I only work on RV's part-time so I don't have a large customer-base. So that in-turn,does not qualify me to be an RV critic if you will. I'm sure that there are several more Quality RV's built that I have not worked on.



I have never been a huge fan of the Fleetwood line of RV's,but after looking at the models at Hershey,it seems they have stepped-up quite favorably.



Any quality RV starts with a rugged frame and under=carraige. Whether it is a MH or trailer or TC. The choice of running gear on a trailer is just as important... as well as how it is attached to the frame. You can have all the best appliances,cabinetry and slide-rooms installed on your trailer and have it mounted on a poorly designed frame and running-gear and have nothing to show for it.

The new chassis for MH's are without a doubt,the best it has been in at least 10 years. Before the new Ford came out in 99' with its 20,500GVW,your options were scarce. The Chevy P-30 was a nightmare to drive... plaqued with handling and over-heating issues. The old F-53 Ford had its issues with wimpy 16" tires and a poorly designed in tank fuel pump. Things were getting better fast and as the GVWR's got higher,the RV manufacturer's got larger. It seems the fuel prices will discourage the larger RV's from being hot sellers in the near future. Workhorse Custom Chassis has announced the Big Block Chevy V-8 will be discontinued for 2010 and replaced with a supercharged version of the 6. 0L. WH Chassis is tight-lipped about HP ratings but logistically I can't see a 6. 0L moving a 26K motorhome around very easily.



Alan

Thanks Alan, that was an excellent summation of quality RV's. I too was impressed with the Tetons, however the price, weight and size were enough to make me walk away.



Before we purchased our Arctic Fox, my wife and I went to a local RV dealer and compared a Nash, Arctic Fox and a Keystone Cougar. The dealer was really pushing the Cougar and my wife was impressed with the nice foo foo interior. I got under them and looked at the frames and the running gear. Then I looked at the fit and finish inside all the outside storage compartments. It didn't take me very long to see which 5er had the better frame, running gear and fit and finish. Arctic and Nash were the same, which were far superior to the Cougar.



After looking at many other RV's, I purchased the RV Consumer Group Guide, which is well worth the money. I had it narrowed down to three 5er, Hitchhiker, Excel and Arctic Fox. All 3 are four star rated. Hitchhiker and Excel were too large for what we wanted. They were also more expensive, so we settled for the 27' Arctic Fox.



Arctic Fox also makes a nice 4 star rated truck camper. On the other hand, it's hard to beat a Lance.



george

 

[Popiol]

How is the Fleetwood Gear Box 5er

 

[Bill Stockard]

Arctic Fox also makes a nice 4 star rated truck camper. On the other hand, it's hard to beat a Lance.

george

Yep, I agree after ownng four Lances in the last 20+ years. Artic Fox is the only other brand on my accecptable truck camper list.



Bill

 

[Grizzly]

Yep, I agree after ownng four Lances in the last 20+ years. Artic Fox is the only other brand on my accecptable truck camper list.



Bill

Bill, Arctic Fox truck campers do look good and are rated excellent, however I have never owned one. I agree with you on the quality of the Lance. You can't go wrong with either one.





Popiol, I don't know what a Fleetwood Gear Box 5er is. However All 5er made by Fleetwood are rated from 1. 5 to 3 stars with most being in the 2. 5 star rating. About the same as Forest River. They are mostly for Vacationing, however Avion is one of the better units made by Fleetwood, 3 star rated for Snowbirding. Avion was discontinued in 04.



I don't know if I answered your question.



george