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Big 3, remember, its a loan, its a loan

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Remember its a loan and will be paid back. They will give more transperancy for the money than Wall Street. They will probably again have more oversight than our politicians gave to Wall Street. By the way DC forgets there were instrumental in the financial disaster. The loan will save more jobs than the Wall Street bailout. This is middle America we're talking about the bread and butter of this country.

This will be part of the rally we need to get going again.

We need to start thinking upbeat and help each other out.

Hooray for the middle class -LETS GET GOING
 
LOANING or GIVING money to a company which is not being run efficiently is like flushing money down the toilet. Unless the ties are cut with the unions which are bankrupting these companies and they are restructured to operate in an efficient manner, they will be back next year pulling on the taxpayer teat wanting more handouts or "loans". Got to FIX THE PROBLEM before throwing more money at it. FORCE them to get it right by declaring bankruptcy and having to restructure before any "loans" are handed out.
 
If the big 3 are burning through cash at 2. 6 billion each per month like was said , well then I dont see this recession ending in the next 4 months so will this be like Iraq and we keep throwing money at the sinking ship
 
The funding of the Iraq war should be considered as a "loan" also. We are giving them freedom and democracy, they should give us oil now.

If the "big 3" get this handout, they should give us each a Dodge/Cummins truck for the cost of the outside company produced parts (Cummins engine, American axles, New Venture trans, New Process transfer case, Infinity radio, etc). I will take a '09 cab/chassis 4x4 6-speed for $8,000, please!
 
These companies need a good kick in the shorts of reality. They need to realize they cant just give away ridiculous amounts of money to these legacy costs that are not sustainable! They need to give the AAW a swift kick in the rear on the way out the door and find people that actually want to work and dont mind getting paid a fair wage for the work being performed. You cant deny that the unions are almost single handedly sinking these ships. Management is also a problem, as they agreed to these ridiculous contracts. Heck, I say shut down the plants for 3 months. Kick every unwilling to work union member out and tell them to forget about coming back. Have an open house, and start interviewing people to replace these morons. I can guarantee that they can find willing and able workers to run these lines for what should be fair for both sides. As far as quality, obviously our more expensive labor costs are NOT producing a competitive product compared to the over-seas products, so, what does that tell ya?
 
Can we really afford to lose the engineering and manufacturing base

My first take on this was to say, "Let them go under". However, years back both Chrysler and my old employer Lockheed both had asked for and received gov't backed loans, emerged healthy and repaid the loans with the interest owed. That said, I think it would be a terrible loss of engineering and manufacturing capability within the USA.

Remember, by letting them go under, their research and development component dies with them. This cuts deep into America's ability to stay even with the rest of the world. Heck, most of our manufacturing is gone already. Let the BIG 3 go under and all their suppliers will fall as well.

Compare this scenario to the oil situation. When there is no domestic competition what will the foreign companies charge for their products? Also, remember if the BIG 3 go under a good portion of your dollars go outside the US just like the oil dollars adding to the deficit. Dollars made and spent in the US get "plowed" into the US economy many times both providing tax revenue and other jobs within the US.

OK, I also realize that the BIG 3 appear "asleep at wheel" as well but think about it, we're at fault as well. Haven't we been the ones buying the big SUVs and inefficient vehicles all along with the "they're bigger, we're safer" mentality? Hell yeah, we're our own worst emeny by doing this.

These companies can't just throw a switch and be building another product line tomorrow. Compounding problem is that the engineering and procurement lead times preclude a quick changeover from one type of vehicle to another. Large capital goods manufacturing, (auto, aircraft, etc. ), require significant up front effort to design, test, submit for bids the many components that go into their products. The sub-contractors must also gear up for the required production. How long do you think it would take you to design and build a plastic molding die or aluminum forging die, much less test the product and document the process? How many different tier levels does this process involve? Each level adds more lead time.

Pick up some of the auto magazines a scan the first few pages of each. You'll see that each of the BIG 3 have a number of new efficient models set to release both in 2009 and beyond. I think we can pull out of this and keep the US auto industry alive as well.

Here's a scenario you can relate to. Let's assume you have a two income family and just lost one of the incomes and now can not afford to stay in your house. You got two choices, let the house go into forclosure or attempt to down size. The foreclosure route loses any equity and kills your hopes to own another. Downsizing sounds good but unless you can sell the existing home, (unlikely), it won't happen. Hmmm, sounds like a gov't loan would help you out. You'll probably get a good rate and even be able to pay it back as the economy recovers.



And yes, I know the BIG 3 need to restructure management and re-negotiate the union contracts. After all it is a "global economy". The gov't loans should require both.



Anyway, I'll get off my soap box now, hoping that each person reads this and gains just a bit more understanding of what could be the long term effect of "Just letting the BIG 3 go under".



Bill
 
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the first link did not work, the second link pointed to my post in the political forum, which I pointed to in my post.



I like the idea, because, it makes people work for the money and They only get it by performing.



AC
 
And yes, I know the BIG 3 need to restructure management and re-negotiate the union contracts. After all it is a "global economy". The gov't loans SHOULD require both.



See, Bill, right there is the whole deal. That word is what it will all hinge on. The Wall Street bail out SHOULD have included some requirement of restructure, at least that after the bail out, these companies that SHOULD have their doors closed, don't send execs on $5K pleasure trips and give out $3 billion Christmas bonuses.



Those yo-yo's shouldn't even have a job, much less be rewarded. I guarantee you I won't be getting a Christmas bonus of all expense paid vacation from my employer this year and I actually made them money, not run them into the ground.



Scott
 
See, Bill, right there is the whole deal. That word is what it will all hinge on. The Wall Street bail out SHOULD have included some requirement of restructure, at least that after the bail out, these companies that SHOULD have their doors closed, don't send execs on $5K pleasure trips and give out $3 billion Christmas bonuses.



Those yo-yo's shouldn't even have a job, much less be rewarded. I guarantee you I won't be getting a Christmas bonus of all expense paid vacation from my employer this year and I actually made them money, not run them into the ground.



Scott





I agree. It's unfortunate how the CEOs and the Board of Directors lose sight. I was always amazed at the huge salaries, bonuses and stock options that were awarded whether or not the companies did well or not.

My main concern was the lost of more USA engineering, development and resource talent. I'm sure you agree on that point as it is one of the things that helps keep the USA a top world power.

That said, -- Big 3 Top Management should be let go with no golden parachutes and the auto workers will have to take into consideration we're in this global economy thing now and expecting to keep the high rates of pay and benefits is unrealistic.
 
LOANING or GIVING money to a company which is not being run efficiently is like flushing money down the toilet. Unless the ties are cut with the unions which are bankrupting these companies and they are restructured to operate in an efficient manner, they will be back next year pulling on the taxpayer teat wanting more handouts or "loans". Got to FIX THE PROBLEM before throwing more money at it. FORCE them to get it right by declaring bankruptcy and having to restructure before any "loans" are handed out.



I dont believe you have your figures straight. The BIG 3 representatives each flew seperately, in Corporate owned jets, to the Congressional meetings. Each Corporation has operations in Mexico and China. They and their fellow "management team" make 7+figures annually + bonuses. They have a contract with Corporate, so do the Union workers. Union wages, pensions and medical benefits are part of the contract agreed to by the Corporation to provide vehicles that we, the consumer, agree to support as we continue to buy that which is offered on the market. I have heard figures per vehicle cost but am not able to verify those numbers. However, the continued mismanagement of the "big 3" rests squarely on the shoulders of their individual management teams. Not on the man or woman who has the skills required to work on the production line building the very vehicle that we consumers curse, but buy without hesitation and brag it up to our neighbor, look what I got:rolleyes:. When you spend your life working for someone who makes a huge financial killing on the skills of YOUR hands, you would hope that the company who has benefited from those years of loyal dedication would have the minimal decency and ethics to honor your mutual Contractural agreement. Price a vehicle model that is built in Mexico and in the USA. There is no price difference, given the lower wages and NO benefits in Mexico! Where is the equity there? YEP! They gotta fix the problem, but it aint the Unions! If You design something that fetches whatever the market will bare and you hire me to build it and we contract together for my skills and agree to pay me whatever the market will bare for my part, I expect you to follow through. Very Simple, Very Easy! GregH
 
I try to look at things through the window of my experience. I have been with the company I work for since January '96. There have been times in the past 21+ years when I could have left this company and made more money, but I know the man that owns the company and I know that he's a good business man and that he's not going out of business for anything he might do. If he goes out of business, I would not expect to receive anything from him in the future. If he doesn't have a business, how's he going to be able to continue to pay me?



I would not have thought 20 years ago that GM, Ford, or Chrysler would go out of business. I would not expect them to "honor your mutual Contractural agreement. " If the company you work for goes bankrupt, it's done. Sorry, but it happens. What about all the people that work for all the RV companies that have gone bankrupt because of the economy and fuel prices? At least they had good reason.



I heard this the other day and if it's wrong, someone please correct me. GM line workers average $75/hour including all their benefits. The average American Toyota line worker averages less than half that. How in the world can any company pay workers at that level AND continue to pay them a pension and health benefits until they're gone? Doesn't make since to me.



Just my . 02... ... .....



Scott
 
BigPapa, Those are certainly excellent wages! But compared to the number of vehicles produced (production is the key word here!)at a huge corporate profit, merely a drop in the bucket. I would gladly work for $1. 00/hour with no benefits IF I could provide a life for my family and myself.

Those wages sound high but that is relative to what? They are twice that of a U. A Pipefitter/Weldor. But based on the cost of a vehicle times the number produced? Again a mere pittance compared to the infrastructure of automated production lines which has reduced the actual number of technicians on the production line.

Lets look at the Profit sources of those "Big three" auto manufacturers. A Dodge Cummins truck assembled in Mexico is the same price as one assembled in the USA! Their wage and non existent benefits serve only the Corporation. Where is the parity here? With factories in China and Mexico and new plants, overseas, on the drawing boards! The "big three did not approach the governments of China and Mexico for bailout funds!

The Corporation is the one that decides on what models to market with what features, not the Union membership. The NAFTA and GAAT treaties cost us American jobs, not Union Labor.

Your point is well taken but I seriously doubt that the Corporate staff(s) did not know they were in serious trouble long before the present economic circumstances reared their ugly head. All the while, Management continues to operate the way they always did with percs and benes and salaries far beyond the needs of the average autoworker as if they are untouchable. GregH
 
I some times think the executive salaries are a bit much but only a small part of the total payroll. These folks who work the line, design and engineer the vehicles and do all the other jobs required to keep things rolling ahve made sacrifices. Do not lump the old regime into the new current workforce. Its easy to look ack but lets look forward. If we wanted to look back we could probably identify a lot of culprits in Washington who didn't do their jobs very well for their salary and retirement and medical benefits and percs. I always wanted to get a chance to go to Washington and turn the tables and have those folks answer my questions and be on CNN or Fox.
 
I think they (the big 3) should all file ch. 11, and reorganize. Get out of their union contracts and go non-union. The fat cat union reps have ruined the American Auto industry. How can the big 3 compete, paying $76. an hour labor vs. Toyota of America paying $41?



ps- I'm not saying the workers recieve 76. per hour. But that is what it costs the company, when all labor costs are factored in, including medical, retirement etc...



The thing killing the Big-3 is the criminal conspiracy known as the UAW.



Currently the compensation for unskilled labor by GM is $76 per hour. Compared to Toyota America, which spends $41 per hour for workers.



The difference? Toyota is non-union. The US government had to agree not to force unionization on Toyota as a condition of Toyota opening it's Kentucky plant,



Health care is one small part of the problem. Retirement benefits that are insanely out of line with reality are a bigger issue. GM pays retirement like the government does, with no regard for reality. Unlike capitalist business, a worker at GM can retire after 30 years with full benefits. That is, 65% of their highest salary and full medical/dental. Only our overlords in government enjoy anything similar. The typical retirement package in private business is about 25% with no benefits starting at age 65. The GM employee often retires at age 50, with 30 years of salary and benefits. As opposed to the mainstream employee who retires at 65, collecting for only half of that time.



The criminal organization known as the "United Auto Workers" has employed bought politicians to employ the force of government to fleece GM for the insanely destructive benefits.



Bailout GM? Sure, start by arresting the top 5% of the UAW on conspiracy, fraud and theft charges. Offer deals for rolling over on the bought politicians they've used to enforce their scam. Have GM immediately renegotiate retirement benefits, realigning with reality, IE - nothing prior to 65 with reductions at that age - get a fricking 401K like real Americans.
 
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As a union member from a Union that you have to produce or you are fired, the UAW is out of control.

The hourly wages are reasonable, its the retirees health care that is crippling the auto companies... . plus a bit of extremely poor managing.



However, they signed the contracts, and you don't see any of the management taking cuts in their health care or salaries.



This is where I wish the Gov would step in with common sense, make the Unions take concessions WITH the management taking t he same.

Example, you need to lay of 30% of the assembly line workers? 30% white collar leave too. (standard unemployment, also, like the rest of us, not their UAW golden fleece unemployment. )



You want them to take a cut in their pension? The CEO takes the same percentage cut, etc.
 
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