To do first: EGR or DPF delete?

[CYauch]

Since getting the pain in the arse P2262 code this weekend, #@$%! I've bee doing allot of reading both here and on another Cummins site (not sure if allowed to post link, so I won't) about the DPF and EGR delete kits. Seen where people have manufactured their own and provided pics. I have a few questions that maybe people here can answer:





1. If i only had the time and resources to perform one delete kit at the present time, which one would be them most beneficial without causing additional issues before the other delete is performed. I guess, which would you, the reader, say is the most bang for the buck, yet allows increasing the life of the engine from day one.



2. Read a number of posts about high oil level on the dipstick. Would either, or both, of these deletes stop that from occurring again? I know many have opinions, but if anyone has actual evidence either way, it would be appreciated.



3. Does anyone have any detailed pics / images and instructions on how they installed these kits? I'm leaning towards manufacturing as much as i can locally if possible. I can't see spending $1000 (or whatever it costs) if i can make locally in our shop, or source from different vendors and put together.



4. Took a look at a couple of performance websites for these kits. Looking for more links / sites readers here may have used for these kits as well.



Basically, I am trying to get as much info as i can from those who run the 6. 7L regularly, and have first hand knowledge about this problem, and have done these deletes... . BEFORE i go off in a wrong direction / decision. Any help would be appreciated, and thanks!

 

[Lil' Dog]

If it were me, I would do the EGR modification and that would be it.

I have been researching alot as well as I need a new rig for the family. The 6. 7 is my selection for a number of reasons, mainly the transmission and ExBrake. But the biggest bang for the buck seems the EGR delete. And after you think about it, getting the soot out of the intake can only help. Reports show EGT's drop significantly as does the number of Regeneration cycles = higher MPG on average. The EGR mainly cycles at low power and idle conditions to keep cylinder temps up, so most of the plugging of the DPF is around town. If you get that soot accumulation down, it will cycle less. Less soot, less soot in the oil and less troubles with EGR related plugging. Seems like a win-win to me for a little CEL light to look at...

I saw on another site (not sure on the link thing either) a complete teardown and build plan for the blocker plates etc.

 

[Coalsmoke]

The DPF and the Regen system is much more detrimental than the EGR. Our engines are made to handle the extra soot in the cylinders, its the DPF and Regen that is causing the turbo fouling and fuel contamination in the oil. Delete the DPF now and do the EGR next week or when you get time, since it really is not too hard to do, just takes a day of messing around making up the plates and pulling stuff out.

 

[Lil' Dog]

I would disagree. If you do the DPF delete and deal with all the "code free" box gremlins and all the money involved with the pipes and kit, you would not really help out the engine as much as the EGR delete. The DPF is a symptom of the problem created by the EGR. If you clean up the intake air, reduce the soot produced by the engine to begin with, the DPF just becomes another piece of pipe. IMHO...

 

[Coalsmoke]

I would disagree. If you do the DPF delete and deal with all the "code free" box gremlins and all the money involved with the pipes and kit, you would not really help out the engine as much as the EGR delete. The DPF is a symptom of the problem created by the EGR. If you clean up the intake air, reduce the soot produced by the engine to begin with, the DPF just becomes another piece of pipe. IMHO...

Look, i'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here and I can understand how your point of view may sound logical from a sunday mechanic point of view, but it is not how it really works out. I have spent a lot of time and money running tests and a battery of oil analysis on the 6. 7 to build a legal case against DC and can tell you that the majority of the soot catalyzed problems will go away with the DPF delete. If you feel otherwise, buy one of these trucks, do your base tests, then do the EGR delete only and start running your own tests (in a scientific manner, none of this "it feels better" stuff) and see what you come up with. Until then, you can of course comment but if you haven't actually done this stuff yourself are you really in a position to sound like an authority on it?



At the end of the day, it makes no difference to me whether anyone follows this advice or not, I did the research to serve myself only. However, it rubs me the wrong way when I see misinformation being posted as fact. That's all I'm going to say on the subject, I don't want this to turn into a ******* match. Have a nice day

 

[CYauch]

Thanks for the responses! Understand that logic of why the EGR is better (i. e. stop so to prevent soot being introduced back into the Intake).

Coal, can you maybe explain to me about why the DPF delete would be the better option? I know what it stands for, and have a basic idea of how it works, but clueless on the pros / cons of applying first. If i understood what i was reading, doing the DPF delete will allow soot to be blow out the tailpipe, preventing some of it from returning via the EGR back into the intake. Additionally, it would open up the exhaust flow leaving the engine. with no place for the soot to collect and wait for a regen, it occurs less often. Am i close, or way off base on that understanding?

Intent wasn't to get feathers ruffled, and i appreciate the responses. Getting me educated on this whole EPA mess

 

[Coalsmoke]

Ok, I'll explain some more about what I know of the system, but understand that this is starting to get out of my realm. I'm not a Cummins engineer

If you monitor the regen cycles and the different stages of each cycle you will notice that once the parameters for a regen have been met, the truck will enter what could be considered a preliminary regen mode. Its purpose is to warm up the ceramic DPF element to reduce thermal shock and subsequent cracking. Remember back when the early 6. 7s had the problems with the DPFs cracking and soot was then getting through them and the DPFs had to be replaced? Well since then this preliminary regen mode has been programmed into our computers to help mitigate this. This preliminary stage last approximately 12-15 minutes and can have multiple attempts before it either aborts the regen at that current time, or if it is successful it will then enter the de-soot mode where the temperature in the DPF is raised high enough to burn the soot trapped in it. Once activated, the regen cycle will take from 15-45 minutes depending on conditions such as the filter load, current driving parameters, etc etc. At any given time the de-soot mode can be put on hold if the driving parameters are not favorable to do a DPF regen. It will attempt to re-initiate the regen de-soot sequence a couple of times before aborting so long as the driving conditions are favorable to do so. However, if for example you pull off the highway and enter stop and go traffic, the de-soot regen mode will abort for good and will not try to re-initiate because the driving conditions are no longer favorable enough to do so.

However, the stupid thing about all this is that with the added pre-regen cycle, you need a pretty good length of time where you are running consistently at speed for a full regen to complete. Knowing that most people are not driving 1-1. 5 hours on the highway on a regular basis, (or other non-stop style of driving), Dodge programmed the pre-regen cycle to start whenever the truck has been running long enough that the system temperatures are at normal operating levels and the DPF soot load is approaching the point where a regen is signaled. The result of this is that these trucks can be driven around town for a couple months, all the while it is attempting to enter the preliminary regen cycle, even in stop and go rush hour traffic, so that when you do get going on that open road the regen sequence will be ready to actually desoot the DPF. It makes sense as to why our trucks are programmed this way, however, the downside is as follows.

The root of the problem lies in the idea that during a regen the computer is programmed to send a fuel delivery (aka an injection event) into the cylinder after the main combustion has taken place but before the cylinder has fully exhausted the gases. The purpose of this is to send unburnt fuel and fuel rich exhaust downstream into the exhaust components to where they will burn outside of the cylinder, creating high downstream exhaust gas temperatures (EGTs). These downstream EGTs do the actual burning of the soot, but in order to achieve these, the cylinder ends up seeing excess fuel in a raw state right when it shouldn't, when it begins to cool down during the exhaust stroke. The result is that fuel ends up bypassing the rings, accelerates wear by creating a washdown effect in the cylinders and then the final kicker is that the fuel contaminates the crankcase oil and dilutes it, thereby creating further engine component wear. Numerous samples showed oil being reduced to 30wt oil by this fuel dilution with alarming rates of wear.

In a nutshell, my main three concerns when I started analyzing the system were the O2 sensors plugging up, the VGT problems (turbo sliding nozzle fouling and sticking), and the high levels of fuel contamination in the crankcase which was showing evidence of accelerated component wear. It was the DPF delete that solved all three of these issues. Only after I had affirmed this with my data did I do the EGR delete for the peace of mind, knowing that I was not introducing the abrasive soot back into my cylinders. I have been told that the 6. 7 has upgraded piston rings to cope with the soot being ingested from the EGR. However, I still don't like that idea, which is why the EGR components are missing from my truck.

 

[Lil' Dog]

Look, i'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here and I can understand how your point of view may sound logical from a sunday mechanic point of view, but it is not how it really works out. I have spent a lot of time and money running tests and a battery of oil analysis on the 6. 7 to build a legal case against DC and can tell you that the majority of the soot catalyzed problems will go away with the DPF delete. If you feel otherwise, buy one of these trucks, do your base tests, then do the EGR delete only and start running your own tests (in a scientific manner, none of this "it feels better" stuff) and see what you come up with. Until then, you can of course comment but if you haven't actually done this stuff yourself are you really in a position to sound like an authority on it?

At the end of the day, it makes no difference to me whether anyone follows this advice or not, I did the research to serve myself only. However, it rubs me the wrong way when I see misinformation being posted as fact. That's all I'm going to say on the subject, I don't want this to turn into a ******* match. Have a nice day

:--) Wow, my first time back in 5 years to the TDR... . Nothings changed... . :-{}

I am sorry if I sounded "uneducated" to the functionality of the system with my 15 years of troubleshooting industrial engines and machinery. Or dabbling in the performance industry since, when I joined here in 99.

I said clearly in my post IN MY HUMBLE OPINION as it was not a professional diagnosis on my part. So it was meant to take it for what its worth on what I have been reviewing on oil analysis results, experience with other diesel engines on the market and industrial applications.

on Edit:

I submit that both Volkswagen and Chevrolet have been dealing with EGR far longer than Cummins has and their battles and results are more favorable to dealing with the ingestion of the waste gas to begin with instead of the aftertreatment.

I thank you for your information. But the delivery was rather insulting and I trust it was not meant to be that way...

 

[CYauch]

Coal,



Thanks for the education and patience. I feel much better informed, and have better understanding of this DPF and EGR crap the EPA is mandating. Wondering if i should have just kept my 01 now :-laf Preliminary reading on various sites tells me that the DPF should probably be the first, but i was gonna put off doing anything in hopes that i wouldn't have this problem... . at least not this soon. They are gonna do TSB 11-001-08, so i may wait till 11-002-08 is also performed before i actually do the delete. Looks like its the most expensive of the two, but I now understand how important it is to the engine. I don't (and probably should) do oil analysis, but i don't put 20,000+ miles a year on my truck, so not sure if it would be of use. I'm sure there's always an advantage of doing it.



Actually called H&S today, and they are now taking orders for 2/17 shipment of a new delete kit with the XRT-6. 7 module. i guess its the same as buying and Edge or similar product. Anyone know about this?



Thanks again for the info, and taking the time to pass it along!

 

[sag2]

The root of the problem lies in the idea that during a regen the computer is programmed to send a fuel delivery (aka an injection event) into the cylinder after the main combustion has taken place but before the cylinder has fully exhausted the gases. The purpose of this is to send unburnt fuel and fuel rich exhaust downstream into the exhaust components to where they will burn outside of the cylinder, creating high downstream exhaust gas temperatures (EGTs). These downstream EGTs do the actual burning of the soot, but in order to achieve these, the cylinder ends up seeing excess fuel in a raw state right when it shouldn't, when it begins to cool down during the exhaust stroke. The result is that fuel ends up bypassing the rings, accelerates wear by creating a washdown effect in the cylinders and then the final kicker is that the fuel contaminates the crankcase oil and dilutes it, thereby creating further engine component wear. Numerous samples showed oil being reduced to 30wt oil by this fuel dilution with alarming rates of wear.

I'm sorry but I have to take exception to some of these statements. How many engines have you seen with accelerated wear from DPF, EGR, Fuel Dilution or what ever else you think is caused by regeneration events? I only work on these things a few hundred times a year, and have run plenty of oil samples. And although they all show soot and fuel in the samples I have yet to see one report that shows accelerated wear, and I have yet to see an engine that is worn out.

I also have to disagree with your theory that most of the problems are caused by regeneration and not soot load from EGR. If you go back through the last two years of posts the problems went from DPF plugging to O2 sensor contamination to turbo sticking. I think you would be hard pressed to find a post in the last few months where the problem was DPF plugging. The flashes released thus far have done a fantastic job of keeping the DPF clean in all but the most extreme (light duty cycles) cases. The O2 problems were the result of the G30 recall that turned on the O2 monitor. Prior to the recall the O2's were still being contaminated but the smart module was not reporting it to the ECM. The P2262 is being caused by soot buildup in the turbo housing that sticks the sliding nozzle.

So my experience is that the less soot you generate (or recycle back to the intake) the fewer problems you will have with the complete system. The way you can keep the soot loads to a minimum is to keep the air filter clean, run clean good quality fuel, change oil as required with the proper oil, don't idle excessively, and get the most recent flashes done so the ECM can best manage the fuel system. Keep in mind that everyone using a power enhancer is probably adding more soot to the system, and that just makes things worse.

I'm not a Cummins engineer either, but I have been to every Chrysler diesel training class offered multiple times, and have first hand experience with hundreds of trucks. I don't subscribe to the delete is better theory, but I also don't try and stop people from doing what they feel is necessary. I try and offer up information that is factual, so people can use it to make informed decisions.

 

[Coalsmoke]

Please, don't turn this into another oil war thread in the making I don't "think" there is fuel in the oil or accelerated wear because of it, I have proof on paper, factual evidence, please realize this is not some hear-se and no matter how many seminars you have been to and no matter how many times chrysler tells us that fuel in the oil is fine, it is not fine. Those that want to complacently swallow this BS and believe it, you go right ahead, I've got some beach front property to sell you while you're still swallowing the BS. This isn't the first time Sag and I have been on different pages, which is fine. People are free to believe what ever they want, I'm not selling anything and I don't represent or work for chrysler, I spent a few thou doing a lot of tests and research to put together my own findings and found a solution to my own problems, and they are not open to public opinion. They are also not a blanket for everyone's truck, they are specific to my individual truck. The sample size here is very small The chrysler fix-it crew couldn't keep my turbo clean, they couldn't solve the 02 sensor issues and they couldn't keep the fuel from contaminating my oil, three strikes you're out for the chrysler techs, despite the numerous times they took my truck and messed with it trying to figure it out. I was not going sit around waiting for the warranty to run out only to have to fork out money for out of warranty repairs.



People also need to think about the EGR situation a little more too. The EGR operating does increase the volume of the soot being ingested into the cylinders vs clean air as is the case on the 5. 9s, but it does not increase the volume of soot experienced by the exhaust system. If an engine is producing 6 grams of soot and hour, everything down stream of the cylinders will still see 6 grams of soot and hour, no matter whether part of that air is recirculated or not. It sounds simple, and it is, but for some reason people make the mistake of thinking that the EGR some how 'makes' soot.



Let's try and stay int he scope of the topic of this thread and quit getting our panties all twisted up in knots:-laf

I'm sorry but I have to take exception to some of these statements. How many engines have you seen with accelerated wear from DPF, EGR, Fuel Dilution or what ever else you think is caused by regeneration events? I only work on these things a few hundred times a year, and have run plenty of oil samples. And although they all show soot and fuel in the samples I have yet to see one report that shows accelerated wear, and I have yet to see an engine that is worn out.

I also have to disagree with your theory that most of the problems are caused by regeneration and not soot load from EGR. If you go back through the last two years of posts the problems went from DPF plugging to O2 sensor contamination to turbo sticking. I think you would be hard pressed to find a post in the last few months where the problem was DPF plugging. The flashes released thus far have done a fantastic job of keeping the DPF clean in all but the most extreme (light duty cycles) cases. The O2 problems were the result of the G30 recall that turned on the O2 monitor. Prior to the recall the O2's were still being contaminated but the smart module was not reporting it to the ECM. The P2262 is being caused by soot buildup in the turbo housing that sticks the sliding nozzle.

So my experience is that the less soot you generate (or recycle back to the intake) the fewer problems you will have with the complete system. The way you can keep the soot loads to a minimum is to keep the air filter clean, run clean good quality fuel, change oil as required with the proper oil, don't idle excessively, and get the most recent flashes done so the ECM can best manage the fuel system. Keep in mind that everyone using a power enhancer is probably adding more soot to the system, and that just makes things worse.

I'm not a Cummins engineer either, but I have been to every Chrysler diesel training class offered multiple times, and have first hand experience with hundreds of trucks. I don't subscribe to the delete is better theory, but I also don't try and stop people from doing what they feel is necessary. I try and offer up information that is factual, so people can use it to make informed decisions.

 

[Coalsmoke]

Sorry

Lil'dog, I owe you an apology. I went from 0-@sshole there pretty fast yesterday and shouldn't have jumped on you like that. I've been on the edge lately as I am a couple months from losing everything I own with this recession, and it seems like @sshole has been the default mode my mouth has been in lately.

 

[Lil' Dog]

Lil'dog, I owe you an apology. I went from 0-@sshole there pretty fast yesterday and shouldn't have jumped on you like that. I've been on the edge lately as I am a couple months from losing everything I own with this recession, and it seems like @sshole has been the default mode my mouth has been in lately.

I can relate. . I work in the Oil industry, nuff said. .



This is a topic that I think all of the great minds here can chip in on. I would only like to submit to help out is all. If I sounded too opinionated, I as well apologize. Any personal objection was not intended.



I don't want to lead anyone down the wrong path as I am learning here too. I have my eye on an 08 6. 7 and wish to learn as much as I can. Hence why I re-joined the TDR after a 5 hear hiatus.



Again, thank you for your data and input.



Jason.

 

[grasmo]

After installing dual dpf's and matching egr's my truck runs so clean birds, bee's, flowers and trees come out of my tailpipe.

 

[Jumbo Jet]

People also need to think about the EGR situation a little more too. The EGR operating does increase the volume of the soot being ingested into the cylinders vs clean air as is the case on the 5. 9s, but it does not increase the volume of soot experienced by the exhaust system. If an engine is producing 6 grams of soot and hour, everything down stream of the cylinders will still see 6 grams of soot and hour, no matter whether part of that air is recirculated or not.

... actually downstream soot is decreasing - because some of the soot is being deposited in the oil, some sticking to the intake and head. This soot will be removed by your friendly service personnel when you take the truck in for a 'cleaning'. #@$%!

 

[Coalsmoke]

I can relate. . I work in the Oil industry, nuff said. .



This is a topic that I think all of the great minds here can chip in on. I would only like to submit to help out is all. If I sounded too opinionated, I as well apologize. Any personal objection was not intended.



I don't want to lead anyone down the wrong path as I am learning here too. I have my eye on an 08 6. 7 and wish to learn as much as I can. Hence why I re-joined the TDR after a 5 hear hiatus.



Again, thank you for your data and input.



Jason.

I agree. Its pretty well up to us the owners to make the best out of a bad situation from those that determined that diesel exhaust must be cleaner than LA air.

After installing dual dpf's and matching egr's my truck runs so clean birds, bee's, flowers and trees come out of my tailpipe.

I looked at that, but don't have big enough flux capacitors to really make it work. :-laf:-laf

... actually downstream soot is decreasing - because some of the soot is being deposited in the oil, some sticking to the intake and head. This soot will be removed by your friendly service personnel when you take the truck in for a 'cleaning'. #@$%!

Unfortunately I agree :{

 

[grasmo]

Nice website Coalsmoke. I want a new website to show off some of the amazing achievements that some of my FORMER employees have accomplished. Push mowers on rooftops because they couldn't crank the backpack blower and decided they could use the pushmower to blow the leaves off the roof,ETC,ETC.

 

[Coalsmoke]

Thanks Grasmo. It has been my winter project to edumacate myself on the makings of a website. I'm slowly building it up.

 

[CUMMINZ]

Who is getting honest fuel mileage increase after just DPF delete?

 

[Coalsmoke]

I had a very noticeable increase after deleting the Nox, DPF, and EGR and running an Edge for modified fuelling. Not cheap, but very worth it.