Glow plug? / plug in

[Ron Bissett]

Do you have a air intake sensor in the block if so take it out clean it and or replace it . looks like a spark plug but has a plastic cage on end with a ball in it spray clean it with carb cleaner replace after putting small amount of oil on seal. Ron Bissett

 

[KDurst]

injector pump

Cummins finally came to the conclusion that it's the fuel pump that pumps to the injectors. $1300 they're telling me, to me that seems kind of high for a pump. I wonder if there's an aftermarket pump for this?

 

[KLauber]

cp3 pump shouldnt be that much, b/c vp44 are atleast $1030 not even a hot rod. the cp3 pump shouldnt be that much b/c of its simplicity compared to mechanical or electronic injection pumps, the cp3 just creates pressure. you could try a reman unit... or even better, hot rod cp3!!!
hope all this trouble doesnt discourage you from keeping your dodge cummins and selling it for one of the other two.
good luck

Will

 

[steved]

I just hope they are diagnosing it correctly... if they already verified the pressure was good, then how can it be the pump???

They checked the pressure to the injectors and that was fine. (... from post #18 above... )

 

[KDurst]

I just got off the phone with them this morning. I told them at this point, I have no confidence in them. First, they (Kenworth North east / Berger and sons) had it for 2 weeks and couldn't figure it out. They said it was a back flow valve that was bad. They replaced it and said it was good to go. I went to pick it up the next morning and it wouldn't start. So they sent it across the street to the Cummins shop who has had it for a week. Cummins said it was different valve and it was good to go as well. Next morning, another no start. They keep saying that the fuel keeps back flowing to the tank when it sits. So I reminded them again, then why does it start right up when it's plugged in or warm.

At this point I told them I want guarantees that this will fix the problem.

I mentioned to them that this pump issue doesn't make sense. I reminded them again that it's a cold starting problem. When it's inside the garage it starts. When it's plugged in over night, it starts. It runs great (after I replaced the fuel control actuator). If the pump is bad, why does it still run fine? He couldn't answer that for me.

So now I'm waiting for a call from Cummins, saying that this guaranteed to fix the problem.

I was searching the net last night, all the pumps I saw were in the $1200 to $1300 range. I just wish I knew more about diesels so could understand this better.



Klauber, at this point, I have no plans to get rid of this. But, I'll be honest a month ago, I was thinking of getting rid of it for a gas engine truck. But, since were in a "false" recession, the dealership don't want to budge on their over inflated price tags. So I didn't pull the trigger.

 

[KDurst]

Milking it????

After not returning my calls yesterday. They (Berger's) called me today to get my o. k. , Cummins said that now the number 3 injector is blowing fuel back. So I jumped on their case and reminded them that before I o. k'd the new pump, I wanted a gaurantee that this would fix it. Then I told them that they have a choice either I'll pay for the pump or I'll pay for the injector, I'm not paying for both. I told them I not going to keep paying for them to keep drawing straws. So far they've replaced 2 valves and the pump. Right now it's at around $3,000, because of all the "diagnostic" work. I prefer to call it "guessing and milking" work myself.

I think it's time to call Cummins headquarters and maybe the better business bureau as well as a lawyer.

I'm ticked about all this now.

 

[RShipp]

You should be very angry. Just keep in mind that not just one thing will cause a certain problem. There are many systems that have multiple components that can all cause the same thing. Now, should they be charging you anything for installing the wrong part? I say no. I'll pay for the part and labor for the part that fixes the problem. Main reason why I do my own maintenance. I go by experience, not by what some troubleshooting manual tells me.

 

[KDurst]

What gets me, Cummins told me that they've had 4 or 5 of these trucks come in with the same issue. They were working on 1 of them when my truck came in. Now I would think that they would have some kind of idea where the problem could be. Twice, I've been told by Cummins, that they had to "build a tool" to check out pressures at certain parts of the fuel system. To me that sounds odd that a Cummins repair shop doesn't have the proper tools to do the job correctly.

I think I'm going to Call Cummins head quarters and talk to someone. To see what can be done and possibly filing a complaint.

The level of professionalism I'm getting from both service managers, both at Berger's and at Cummins is pathetic. Berger's manager doesn't call me back, and has his assistant call me. Cummins was calling me and giving me updates, now they won't call me, after I told them that I'll only pay for the pump, if it fixes the problem. Now they just call Berger's. And I haven't even yelled or given them any reason to think that I'm unhappy. To me it seems like they know what they are trying to pull is wrong.



Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas on what I can do or say to Cummins?



Thanks

 

[RShipp]

Distributors are kind of like franchise. I'm not sure if you can climb the ladder higher than them or not. I'm sure if you get in contact with some one in customer service at the headquarter level, that they should be able to direct you to the proper people. My guess is that the distributor is being subjective. Try the Cummins website to see if you can find some numbers.

 

[rbattelle]

I've witnessed (been a victim of) my local Cummins shop being just as incompetent as any other goobers out there, which is a real shame.

When you get right down to it, the only one who knows how to do it right is you.

I'm sorry to hear you're getting the run-around so badly. I know how frustrating it can be, believe me. As Rodney Dangerfield used to say, "I get no respect".

Ryan

 

[KDurst]

We'll see what happens today. Cummins was supposed to call yesterday. But never did. I did call Cummins HQ's customer assistance team. They promptly called me back 4 hours later. I told him all the issues I've been having and I asked him what were my options. He told me to talk to the operations manager for that garage and see if that gets any results. I told him that they've had my truck for 2 and 1/2 weeks now. He said that wasn't right, and that the garage should have called in a "field service engineer specialist". Then he tried to explain to me that they had a "flow tree procedure" for problem solving these problems, I told him that everyone knows that's just a way to cover their arse for when they get sued for "fleecing the everyday consumber". It got real quiet then.

This is going to get really interesting on who and what is going to pay for all this. Technically Berger's is Cummins customer with my truck. Berger's told me that they told Cummins that they felt that Cummins was doing unnecessary labor and parts on this truck. Berger's also told me that they felt they made a mistake in taking it to Cummins.

I'm just sick and tired of Cummins drawing straws and hoping they find the problem, and charging for it. Funny thing is, Cummins keeps blaming Dodge for it, amazing. Their engine and fuel system, but somehow it's Chrysler's fault.

I'm just wondering if any of this truck's issues could be electrical????

 

[RShipp]

With all the electronics on today's engines, who knows. I miss the days when all you needed was power to one wire to get a Cummins to start.

 

[KDurst]

Thanks Guys, I appreciate the good info. I've been getting.

I'm getting ready to call the shop now. Fingers are crossed.

 

[FLynes]

I know this is a shot in the dark, but your problem sounds like the same I experienced in Kansas, in January of 2006. We stopped in Hays, because I wanted to get the local Dodge dealership to spray a Toff Liner in the bed and put in a B&W turnover gooseneck hitch. It was extremely cold, when we left the motel, and I couldn't get the truck to start. It took a good several minutes for it fire up and, when it did, the truck ran like crap... . coughing, wheezing.



We got to the dealership, and I described the problem to them. They told me that it sounded like they needed to replace the injectors, but they needed authorization from Star Center which, after three days of waiting, I said screw it and kept going on my trip... ... . this is where your situation sounds like mine..... while it was in the shop, where it was warm, the truck fired right up. The dealership told me that they couldn't understand it.



Long story short, when I got back to Maryland, I took it to my dealership, and they told me that there was a little-known TSB out to reprogram the truck for the injectors... fixed my problem, and I never again experienced those symptoms again.



I wish I could remember the TSB #, but this was three years ago.



I hope this helps a bit.

 

[cerberusiam]

A friend is manager at a large local Cummins service center, they work on a lot of big rigs, not a lot of Ram common rails. Like most shops, they have A, B, and C grade techs. You just need to find the right tech.

That is very true. A lot depends on what the service center will allow their techs to learn. Just because it has a big blue C on it does not mean every Cummins center can work on them. A lot will tell you up front "we don't have the training or tools for that model", but, with the economy the way it is work is work.

Their engine and fuel system, but somehow it's Chrysler's fault.

There is a LOT more truth in that statement than anyone realizes. Yes, it is a Cummins engine, but, with a Bosch (not Cummins) electronic fuel system controlled by a Dodge (not Cummins) ECU. When 99% of the problems revolve around the fuel system and electronics which most Cummins service centers don't have the training for, good luck.



A good Dodge trained tech is the single best resource for these problems. Finding one is like finding a gold nugget in your cereal.

 

[KDurst]

I know this is a shot in the dark, but your problem sounds like the same I experienced in Kansas, in January of 2006. We stopped in Hays, because I wanted to get the local Dodge dealership to spray a Toff Liner in the bed and put in a B&W turnover gooseneck hitch. It was extremely cold, when we left the motel, and I couldn't get the truck to start. It took a good several minutes for it fire up and, when it did, the truck ran like crap... . coughing, wheezing.



We got to the dealership, and I described the problem to them. They told me that it sounded like they needed to replace the injectors, but they needed authorization from Star Center which, after three days of waiting, I said screw it and kept going on my trip... ... . this is where your situation sounds like mine..... while it was in the shop, where it was warm, the truck fired right up. The dealership told me that they couldn't understand it.



Long story short, when I got back to Maryland, I took it to my dealership, and they told me that there was a little-known TSB out to reprogram the truck for the injectors... fixed my problem, and I never again experienced those symptoms again.



I wish I could remember the TSB #, but this was three years ago.



I hope this helps a bit.

Thanks, that just confirms what the majority are thinking.

Now, that's what Cummins is saying. Now I'm just waiting for the Berger's to call me so I can tell them to pull the truck from Cummins. I'm tired of getting the run around and lies from the service manager there.

 

[rbattelle]

There is a LOT more truth in that statement than anyone realizes. Yes, it is a Cummins engine, but, with a Bosch (not Cummins) electronic fuel system controlled by a Dodge (not Cummins) ECU.

At least through 2004 the ECM is Cummins-supplied. Mine is the CM845 controller, and I believe starting in 2005 they went to the CM850 controller. A Cummins piece of hardware through-and-through. [In fact, I was fortunate enough once to meet one of the people who wrote the software on the CM845].



The Bosch fuel system is a worldwide standard, in use by many OEM engine manufacturers, including Cummins. If you buy a B-series from Cummins it will come with the Bosch fuel system on it. What I'm saying is, there is no excuse for Cummins not knowing how to properly diagnose and repair the system.



Ryan

 

[FLynes]

... . What I'm saying is, there is no excuse for Cummins not knowing how to properly diagnose and repair the system.



Ryan

Unless this place is hiring morons, who are getting OJT from another moron.

 

[cerberusiam]

At least through 2004 the ECM is Cummins-supplied. Mine is the CM845 controller, and I believe starting in 2005 they went to the CM850 controller. A Cummins piece of hardware through-and-through. [In fact, I was fortunate enough once to meet one of the people who wrote the software on the CM845].



The Bosch fuel system is a worldwide standard, in use by many OEM engine manufacturers, including Cummins. If you buy a B-series from Cummins it will come with the Bosch fuel system on it. What I'm saying is, there is no excuse for Cummins not knowing how to properly diagnose and repair the system.



Ryan

No sir, that is incorrect. A Bosch is not a Bosch and an ECU is not an ECU. Thats the main reason you cannot expect a Cummins shop that works on industrial and medium duty trucks to just know the Dodge specific items. Its just the same as taking your Dodge to a Ford dealer and expecting the techs to know all they need to know.



Let me clarify one thing, the ECU is Cummins item but whats in it is definitely not Cummins. Starting in Dec 2003 all the ECU's were flashed with Dodges own version of programming. The generic Cummins programming is no longer the base. A large amout of the parameters and functionality is not even accessible without a StarScan tool and that is really a dealer only or Dodge approved service center item. You can't even get flashes or updates unless you have all the credentials and authorization from STAR. In addition, programming and features for a medium duty engine is different from a light duty, the programs are different. If you don't have the correct reader modules and the correct trouble shooting guides its like working blind folded.



As for a Bosch fuel system, do you mean to say there are no difference between a VE, P7100, VP, and CR systems? Even with those groupings there are variations depending on use. Just because it says Bosch does not mean the tech has been trained on that particular implementation and controls. They are trained for what they work on but lack the specialization for all the possible combinations.



FWIW, the above information is gleaned from conversations with techs and service managers at several Cummins authorized service centers. While they expected they could come close in diagnosis and repair there was no guarantee and they would much rather not deal with the fallout if they were wrong because they lacked the correct tools to do the job.



Gotta respect them for not just taking the money and shrugging their shoulders when things went bad.

 

[KDurst]

"Gotta respect them for not just taking the money and shrugging their shoulders when things went bad. "

__________________

Maybe, but if they could not understand what was wrong. Why wouldn't they ask for help. Cummins HQ told me that if they couldn't fix it within a week, they should have contacted a field service engineer specialist, instead of guessing what might have been the problem.



Here's something amazing this afternoon at 2, I told Berger's to pull the truck away Cummins so we come up with another plan. 3 hours later, Cummins leaves a message on my cell phone, saying the truck was done and running. I don't know how since they weren't given authorization from me to replace the injector they claimed was bad.



This whole saga is getting to be more and more like a soap opera. I'll have to call in the morning to see if it starts from sitting over night. And to as Cummins put it "figure out the bill".