Glow plug? / plug in

[cerberusiam]

Maybe, but if they could not understand what was wrong. Why wouldn't ask for help. Cummins HQ told me that if they couldn't fix it within a week, they should have contacted a field service engineer specialist, instead of guessing what might have been the problem.

Look at the economy. Work is work. If you can charge somebody too much for too little and get away with it... ... . well... ...



Maybe the call to Cummins Corp got the ball rolling and they decided to do it right instead of cheap. Main reason I would be very leary of expecting a Cummins Center like that to be the best choice. I would be asking a lot of questions about training, tools, partnerships, etc, before I let them start.



Thats just me.

 

[rbattelle]

you cannot expect a Cummins shop that works on industrial and medium duty trucks to just know the Dodge specific items.

Certainly not. In fact, I don't expect a Cummins shop to know anything about Freightliner, Mack, Volvo, International, etc. specific items, either.

Let me clarify one thing, the ECU is Cummins item but whats in it is definitely not Cummins. Starting in Dec 2003 all the ECU's were flashed with Dodges own version of programming. The generic Cummins programming is no longer the base.

Ah, I see what happened. I'm thinking in terms of 2004. 5-prior trucks, which had Cummins-programmed ECUs. I guess in a way I'm not surprised this changed when the "600" series came out (or thereabouts). Since we're talking about a 2006 here, it was not appropriate for me to be discussing earlier engines. I apologize for the confusion, and will try to be more relevant in the future.

On edit - oops! No, we are talking a 2003 here! Perhaps the problem is that Cummins turned off the J1939 bus (at the request of Dodge) on the CM845? I was under the impression that Insite could still get into the ECU, which I have just found isn't the case.

As for a Bosch fuel system, do you mean to say there are no difference between a VE, P7100, VP, and CR systems?

Now, cerberusiam, you've been around here a long time. Is your opinion of me this low?

My point was that the presence of a Bosch fuel system on the Cummins engine is no excuse for Cummins to not know how the fuel system works. You said:

... with a Bosch (not Cummins) electronic fuel system...

Which I think sounds like you're making excuses for this Cummins shop not being able to work with the Bosch fuel system. My point is that the presence of a Bosch fuel system is no excuse for a Cummins shop to not know how to work on it.

The training and experience of the technicians should be of no concern to the customer. If the shop accepts the job, then it better produce results. If someone asked me to perform heart surgery, I'm not going to say "sure!" just to help out. If I accepted such a job, then killed the patient, I wouldn't be innocent because I was never trained to do that kind of work.

Or am I wrong? Maybe "buyer beware" is a better policy? I don't know for sure, but I've made my choice. It's up to each of us to decide, I guess.

If you're going to put out a sign that says "Cummins", and you're going to accept all Cummins engines for repair work, then you better know what you're doing, whomever is the vehicle builder. Cummins doesn't build any vehicles, so every single one that comes into a Cummins repair shop is loaded to the gills with non-Cummins stuff.

Maybe the bottom line is this Cummins shop should never have accepted the job in the first place. Or at least admitted defeat and returned the vehicle when it became apparent they couldn't fix it.

Ryan

 

[cerberusiam]

On edit - oops! No, we are talking a 2003 here! Perhaps the problem is that Cummins turned off the J1939 bus (at the request of Dodge) on the CM845? I was under the impression that Insite could still get into the ECU, which I have just found isn't the case.



Now, cerberusiam, you've been around here a long time. Is your opinion of me this low?



My point was that the presence of a Bosch fuel system on the Cummins engine is no excuse for Cummins to not know how the fuel system works.

Yes, and the fact that i they ever flashed an ECU from prior to the Dec 2003 date it was withthe Dodge version of the programming.



Low opinion? Nah, just making a point that Bosch is not a narrow set of parameters that every tech would\could\should know unless they have that particular training. One would expect a good general knowledge and them to be bright enough to pick up the rest but maybe thats setting expectations too high.



If I was flaming you I would call you a doofus and use things like and .

Which I think sounds like you're making excuses for this Cummins shop not being able to work with the Bosch fuel system. My point is that the presence of a Bosch fuel system is no excuse for a Cummins shop to not know how to work on it.



The training and experience of the technicians should be of no concern to the customer. If the shop accepts the job, then it better produce results. If someone asked me to perform heart surgery, I'm not going to say "sure!" just to help out. If I accepted such a job, then killed the patient, I wouldn't be innocent because I was never trained to do that kind of work.



Or am I wrong? Maybe "buyer beware" is a better policy? I don't know for sure, but I've made my choice. It's up to each of us to decide, I guess.



If you're going to put out a sign that says "Cummins", and you're going to accept all Cummins engines for repair work, then you better know what you're doing, whomever is the vehicle builder. Cummins doesn't build any vehicles, so every single one that comes into a Cummins repair shop is loaded to the gills with non-Cummins stuff.



Maybe the bottom line is this Cummins shop should never have accepted the job in the first place. Or at least admitted defeat and returned the vehicle when it became apparent they couldn't fix it.

No excuses for the shop, they took on the job and they should suck it up and do what it takes to make it right. If they couldn't do it I would expect them to tell me no like I have been several times.



I subscribe to the "buyer beware" theory and if I don't hold to that hard line I have gotten burned.



Does that make me a cynic? Experienced? :-laf





I would be the customer from hell in a case like this. Me having to shoulder the blame for them not getting right translates to lots of uncomfortable people. :-laf

 

[FLynes]

Well now I'm really curious about the outcome of this saga.



KDurst, what's the verdict?



FWIW, I came close to a similar problem like this with my Ferd. It was getting lousy MPGs and acting sluggish so, rather than take it to the stealership, I figured I'd go to the local International shop in town... . big mistake. At first, the service manager told me, "No problem, we work on these engines all the time!" When they pulled the truck in, I stood outside the bay, looking in. The tech popped the hood, looked at the engine bay for a while and then said, "This doesn't look like a VT365". I went to the service manager and told him thanks but no thanks and took my truck back.



Long story short, just because it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, doesn't always mean it's a duck..... could be a flying platypus! :-laf



BTW, it was my fuel filters that were crudded up. I changed em myself.

 

[KDurst]

Look at the economy. Work is work. If you can charge somebody too much for too little and get away with it... ... . well... ...



Maybe the call to Cummins Corp got the ball rolling and they decided to do it right instead of cheap. Main reason I would be very leary of expecting a Cummins Center like that to be the best choice. I would be asking a lot of questions about training, tools, partnerships, etc, before I let them start.



Thats just me.

Yeah, I understand work is work. We might not like it, and think their practices are unfair. But intentionally screwing over the consumer and lying to me goes well beyond professionalism, that's fraud.

I'm sure a lawyer followed by a local TV station's "problem solver" type team will open up some eyes. I think a good lawyer could do some serious damage to this Cummins garage's work ethics.

 

[KDurst]

Verdict?????????

Well now I'm really curious about the outcome of this saga.



KDurst, what's the verdict?



FWIW, I came close to a similar problem like this with my Ferd. It was getting lousy MPGs and acting sluggish so, rather than take it to the stealership, I figured I'd go to the local International shop in town... . big mistake. At first, the service manager told me, "No problem, we work on these engines all the time!" When they pulled the truck in, I stood outside the bay, looking in. The tech popped the hood, looked at the engine bay for a while and then said, "This doesn't look like a VT365". I went to the service manager and told him thanks but no thanks and took my truck back.



Long story short, just because it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, doesn't always mean it's a duck..... could be a flying platypus! :-laf



BTW, it was my fuel filters that were crudded up. I changed em myself.

I called the original garage (Berger's) (again, who sent the truck to Cummins), and told them that Cummins called last evening and left a message that the truck was fixed and running fine. I asked Berger's to go over there this morning and see if it starts while cold. And that I wanted the truck to stay at the garage sitting all weekend to see if it starts Monday morning. I wanted this done before calling Cummins and "settling the bill" as Cummins put it.



Sorry for drawing this out.



Anyhow, they said they'd be there at 8 to see it start and call me right away.

That was 2 and half hours ago, I haven't heard from either Berger's or Cummins. I'm getting suspicous again.

 

[FLynes]

It's around this time that I'd be documenting everything, getting all paperwork together and getting advice from legal counsel.

 

[KDurst]

Yes, and the fact that i they ever flashed an ECU from prior to the Dec 2003 date it was withthe Dodge version of the programming.



Low opinion? Nah, just making a point that Bosch is not a narrow set of parameters that every tech would\could\should know unless they have that particular training. One would expect a good general knowledge and them to be bright enough to pick up the rest but maybe thats setting expectations too high.



If I was flaming you I would call you a doofus and use things like and .











No excuses for the shop, they took on the job and they should suck it up and do what it takes to make it right. If they couldn't do it I would expect them to tell me no like I have been several times.



I subscribe to the "buyer beware" theory and if I don't hold to that hard line I have gotten burned.



Does that make me a cynic? Experienced? :-laf





I would be the customer from hell in a case like this. Me having to shoulder the blame for them not getting right translates to lots of uncomfortable people. :-laf

I just wish Cummins was like my regular mechanic. If he can't fix it, he doesn't charge me. In fact he had it originally for 3 weeks. He replaced the fuel heater with an aftermarket heater. It only worked a couple of days, then he bought one from the Dodge dealership and installed that. He also welded my tailpipe back on. Anyhow, he told me to wait on paying him, to see if it stayed running. But, after 2 weeks we were back to plugging it in. Then I told him I took it to a diesel garage and I asked him for my bill. He said no charge at all, because he didn't get it running right. You don't see that kind of service anymore.

 

[KDurst]

It's around this time that I'd be documenting everything, getting all paperwork together and getting advice from legal counsel.

I started doing that when my original mechanic was working on it. Not that he would screw me over. But, for the fact that if I had to take it somewhere else they would know what was worked on. I also kept it detailed enough with outside temperatures and what not.



I started a second log when Berger's and Cummins started working on it. That started 3 weeks ago when Berger's told me it was fixed by replacing a "back flow valve" and I showed up the next morning and it didn't start.

I've kept records and quotes from every conversation I've had regarding this truck.

 

[KDurst]

I will post again on Monday. Berger's didn't get to the Cummins garage until 10, at that point it was outside. He turned the key and it fired right up. So he's taking it back to his place and is supposed to try it again tomorrow am. And then on Monday morning again. If it fires Monday a. m. , I'll call Cummins. So I don't know what all has been done since Tuesday, other than the no. 3 injector leaking, or so Cummins claims. 4th time the charm I guess.

 

[rbattelle]

If I was flaming you I would call you a doofus and use things like and .

Fair enough! Lord knows I've been called worse.

No excuses for the shop, they took on the job and they should suck it up and do what it takes to make it right. If they couldn't do it I would expect them to tell me no like I have been several times.



I subscribe to the "buyer beware" theory and if I don't hold to that hard line I have gotten burned.

I agree. It bothers me when Cummins shops in particular yank customers around like this. Probably because I really like Cummins and it gives them a bad name.



Ryan

 

[KDurst]

Bad Injector was the Culprit.

I just picked up my truck this afternoon. The truck was running when I got there, when I got back to work, I tried restarting it, it took quite a few seconds for it to start. So we'll see if it starts in the morning.

I asked on Friday that it be left outside over the weekend. But, it stayed inside Cummins garage all weekend. Par for the course at this time.

I got a copy of the bill from Cummins and I all but fell out of my seat. I let Berger's know that I would pay them for what little they did. And that I'm not paying anything for the Cummins work. And that I will be contacting a lawyer, Berger's said they didn't blame me. After my hands quit shaking I started reading the mechanics log. Lies and unecessary labor filled most of it.

I'm going to quote the mechanic which is on the invoice, "At a loss at this point other than to replace number 3 injector".



Other than the massive amount of "leaks" they fixed (amazingly my block and componets are all dry, except when I replaced my fuel filter and had some spillage, which I told Cummins about).

They said I had a "fuel pump failed", which is a lie.

Secondly, a "#3 injector and pass thru failed", I firmly believe this was the culprit.

Third, "Replaced check valve orings that were leaking at back of head", which Berger's had just replaced the check valve the week before.



Wish me luck on resolving this!!!!!!!!!!

 

[KDurst]

They probably kept the truck inside for one of the 3 following reasons:



1. The truck was apart awaiting parts. Why push it outside?

2. Like most garages, they reduce their liability from theft/vandalism by keeping stuff inside on nights/weekends.

3. They were afraid a disgruntled customer might stop by with an extra set of keys.



While I appreciate your position, I am glad I am not working on your truck. (actually I write software, but all the same... . ) Getting advice off this board isn't the same as diagnosing a truck's problems, responsibly ordering and installing parts, covering overhead, etc.

I'm not sure what you meant by that. Care to explain that better.



I'm not the most mechanically inclined person, so one of the reasons I joined this site and started this thread, I was just looking for advice / similiar experiences from others. Since Berger's and Cummins had my truck for a month, occasionally I would mention some of the suggestions from here.



Are saying Cummins has all the rights to lie and fleece a customer with their under qualified mechanics???



On my invoice the mechanic mentioned that they hooked it up to a scanner (when it was sitting outside and didn't start), and had a code P0541, "low grid heater voltage", yet they didn't pursue that. Because they had "tunnel vision".

If it's a cold start problem, shouldn't you keep it outside to duplicate the conditions instead of having it sit in a heated garage???

3 times I was told the problem was fixed. Then when it was outside and sat for a bit, it wouldn't start.



Berger's was the one who was supposed to have it outside this past weekend (they dropped the ball), as far as Cummins was concerned they were done.

Besides, Berger's has a fenced in yard with lots of trucks sitting there, so theft and vandalism wouldn't be a concern. Cummins however doesn't have any protection and does not park vehicles outside.



So you were wrong on all 3 assumptions!

 

[KDurst]

Guess I should have explained it better when I made the attorney comment.



I just want Cummins to be held accoutable for their inability to diagnose the problem and for not following their own policies. I understand that there could have been several problems causing this issue.

They were supposed to call in a field service engineer if they couldn't fix it in a week. They didn't. They kept guessing and guessing at what the problem might be and expect me to pay for thier guess work. That's BS.

They had a truck in there at the same time as mine with the same problem, yet didn't learn from that experience??????

Then to lie about why they replaced the fuel pump. That's the straw that broke the camel's back. That is FRAUD, plain and simple.



Don't get me wrong, I know Cummins should be paid for some of the work they did. But I'm not going to pay them the $3000 that they billed for. Especially when most of the diagnostic work they performed was a duplicate from what Berger's had done, in which Berger's told Cummins the test they performed and the results they got.



The short of it is. They charged $1200 for a pump they replaced. Even though they said originally that it was good and pumping out the pressure and volume that was requried, They changed their story later and said the pump had no pressure at all. Amazing that it ran with no pressure at all.



And $1500 for labor, with 75% of that was duplicated work.



So if you think that Cummins was just and they had all the rights in the world to do that. Then I think you have a large hole in your head. Because that is just a big cluster ####!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[KDurst]

That's what I'm hoping for to. I haven't made any threats to anyone. I just told Berger's that I think the invoice from Cummins was outrageous and unwarranted and at this time I won't pay for. I also told Berger's I won't talk to Cummins just yet.



Do you know how Cummins keeps track of their labor hours?

I'd like to how much time was spent on each project that they worked on.



Thanks

 

[SBeretz]

Man, good luck with that. I had an old Ford Diesel that blew the headgaskets. I had a shop in SoCal (Diesel Tune) do the gaskets and all of the work involved. Well, I picked the truck up after 6 weeks and by the time I got back to my house, it was spewing coolant all over the place. I took it back to them. They claimed something plugged the radiator and made the engine crack. Well, I was very familiar with the older Ford diesels and pretty much knew the engine had not had a "crack". I was PCS'ing in about two weeks and didn't have time to really do anything with the truck, so I sold it for a huge loss, to my cousin, who bought it and had it shipped to NY. He pulled the engine, dropped in another diesel he had laying around and checked out the original. Turns out it was a blown headgasket! I paid about 3500 total for all of the parts and labor and felt pretty helpless about the situation. I had already ordered my 06 Dodge, and have been really happy ever since, but I am still mad to this day about getting fleeced by that shop.

My cousin ended up replacing the bad gaskets and is still driving the truck. It runs like a champ. I wished I had the time, space and resources to fix it myself, but with the PCS move and new duty station, I had no real choice other than to take it in the shorts. Good luck, I hope they take care of you. I know how much it hurts to pay that kind of money and still not have a operable truck. Scotty