Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Hard Start / Long Start / Slow Start

[SScandalis]

I have a hard start / long start / slow start problem with a 1998. 5 Cummins 24-valve in a Dodge 2500 Quad Cab. I'm looking for assistance regarding what could be causing this condition which has come up in just the last month.

Truck
1998. 5 Ram 2500 Quad Cab 5. 9 Cummins 24-valve diesel engine

Symptoms
Until recently engine has always started instantaneously for 11 years. Barely bumping the starter half a second would bring the engine to immediate life. Now it takes 2 to 10 seconds of cranking to start. During cranking it acts like there is no fuel at all, no sputtering at all, just all of a sudden it starts up at once.

Starting time seems to be inverse to engine temperature, but not always: 2-3 second starts most often when engine is cooler. 5-7-10 second starts when engine is hotter. Sometimes it will start in 2 seconds when engine is hot, but engine rarely does this and normally requires much longer cranking when engine is up to operating temperature / hot.

No driveability problems whatsoever, even when recently fully loaded with cab-over truck camper loaded and mountain driving, just the hard start / long start / slow start problem.

Earlier Repairs
1) Replaced stock 12 volt starter motor contacts with 24 volt SuperSize contacts several years ago when stock 12 volt starter contacts were sticking/welding. No starter problems or sticking at all since this upgrade.

2) VP44 high pressure pump and engine-mounted lift pump were replaced 3-4 years ago. Lift pump was providing <5 psi pressure per Diesel Technical and took out the expensive VP44 high pressure pump.

3) Engine mounted Lift Pump was leaking fuel through the electrical connector and was replaced with the in-tank fuel pump at Dodge a year ago.

4) CAM Position Sensor was replaced a year ago too.

Already Tried Recently
Two new batteries, new air filter, drained fuel out of filter to make sure no water was in the fuel, several full tanks of fuel run through all in the last two weeks.

So far the Dodge dealer has done the following this repair trip
1) Checked the in-tank fuel pump pressure and flow and found both are okay (engine lift pump was replaced 1 year ago with the in-tank pump unit Dodge now installs).

2) Diesel technician found TSB 18-015-00 for hard starts with winter fuel and engine at normal operating temperature with instructions to update/reflash the ECM module. I'm using normal #2 diesel and temperature is in 60-80 deg F now. Technician confirmed repair but when I went to pick up the truck today it was still taking 2-3 second to start, cranking with no firing at all until it came to life all at once. Restarting even 10 seconds later still resulted in 2-3 second cranking time.

This is the same symptom as before the ECM reprogramming. I've left truck with diesel technician to test if hot engine start has improved after the ECM update and to diagnosis the issue further.

3) Still no firm diagnosis for the hard start / long start / slow start that's taking 2-10 seconds when engine has started instantaneously before.

Thanks

 

[Ron Bissett]

Check inspect,clean or replace Thee air intake sensor ,located near the fuel pump location on the block . If dirty or not working this could be a big problen like hard to start . Ron Bissett

 

[DIESELWRKS]

do you know if any codes were being thrown from the dodge technician. do you have a fuel pressure gauge installed? IMO the intake pump is a bad Idea for dodges fix. more labor not proven to be reliable. you said the low pressure took out your vp. how long ago was that. so if your current vp-44 new. under a warranty. keep us posted would like to know the out come

 

[Ram4Sam]

I had this briefly a few years ago. I had changed the fuel filter, tightened the lid hand tight, went to get a socket to snug it up. Had a senior moment and forgot to tighten the lid properly. Had the same start condition. After I remembered the lid a few days later, snugged it up and start issue went away. I believe I had it tight enough to not leak but loose enough to suck air into the system.



Sam

 

[SScandalis]

On my recent trip the Engine Check Light came on occasionally for several starts then cleared. This happened several times on a recent trip.

Technician found one code - P0122 APP Sensor (accelerator position sensor). I know that I touched the accelerator petal at least once during a very long start so that may have tripped the code at least one time.

Rebuilt VP44 was installed about 4 years ago. I think the warranty was a year.

No, I do not have a fuel pressure gauge installed. I've been meaning to do this but need a good recommendation for a fuel pressure gauge (and maybe 1 or 2 other readings) that can mount cleanly to the 1998. 5 fuel filter in/out pressure ports and mount well / cleanly inside the cab to the speaker pillar or possibly the dash if the mount / cover is clean in appearance.

 

[DIESELWRKS]

what state do you live in.

 

[SScandalis]

California.

 

[DFerverda]

When mine acted like that i replaced the batteries, ff, reset the apps, cleaned all the grounds, I finally just replaced the starter, which had the upgraded contacts... ... That fixed it. The starter was slow, i didn't realize it till i put in the new starter. Now it starts like it used to.
Dirk

 

[SScandalis]

How can a slow starter be detected? Can this be determined by monitoring for excess starting current or by somehow monitoring the RPM of the engine during cranking?

With two new batteries my voltage drops to about 10. 5 volts DC during cranking checked by using a multimeter that has a high/low voltage capture feature. This may be just the initial voltage drop. I'll have to take the multimeter off high/low and visually observe the voltage during a long cranking session to see if it floats back up a little higher during the actual cranking.

I removed the starter back a few years and changed the solenoid contacts myself but it's a bear to get the top 10mm 12-point bolt loose. Also, a new starter is about $400 so I'd prefer a way to reasonably point to the starter before going to that step.

As a FYI for others, Foster Trucks in Tacoma WA sells the SuperSize 24 volt Starter Solenoid Contacts and replacement plunger and also the new Nippon DENSO OEM starters for varous years with the larger SuperSized 24 volt contacts already installed for around $400. LarryB's Dodge starting problems solved here. They have some good installation instructions and tips on getting the top bolt loose.

Geno's Garage sells the SuperSized 24 volt contacts and replacement plunger kit: STARTER SOLENOID REBUILD KIT (89-03) DODGE-Dodge Cummins Diesel Truck Accessories – Geno’s Garage

 

[KevinSmith]

Also consider

1. The checkvalve in the banjo bolt maybe allowing the fuel system to lose some of its prime.

2. The o-rings for the injectors may leak and bleed down. (Haven't dealt with # 2 but I was talking to someone that said that it fixed thier problem, take it for what its worth)

3. Cracked fuel pickup it the tank. The hairline crack did it to mine.

 

[DFerverda]

After i got the truck, i had problems with the Solenoid Contacts sticking and installed the larger contacts, which fixed that issue.
Sometime after 200k is when the slow start issue started. After doing all the above i was at autozone getting some oil and one of my friends was getting a starter for his 2000 dodge. I helped him put it in and noticed his spun and sounded better.
LSS i replaced mine with the same starter from autozone, lifetime warranty and was i think around $175 that was 40k ago and still goin strong.
If your starter sounds good and spins good compared to another CTD, then i would check elsewhere.

Is there pressure or vacuum in the fuel tank?

 

[SScandalis]

Also consider

1. The checkvalve in the banjo bolt maybe allowing the fuel system to lose some of its prime.

2. The o-rings for the injectors may leak and bleed down. (Haven't dealt with # 2 but I was talking to someone that said that it fixed thier problem, take it for what its worth)

3. Cracked fuel pickup it the tank. The hairline crack did it to mine.

Kevin,



Can you clarify? Are you saying that a crack in the in-tank fuel pickup caused you similar hard start problems as mine (2-10 second starts with normally 2-3 seconds with a cool engine and 5-7-10 seconds with a hot engine)?



If so, how did you or the mechanic detect is was the fuel pickup? It's a big job to drop down the fuel tank to investigate so I'm hoping there was some other indicator that showed externally.



Thanks

 

[SScandalis]

After i got the truck, i had problems with the Solenoid Contacts sticking and installed the larger contacts, which fixed that issue.

Sometime after 200k is when the slow start issue started. After doing all the above i was at autozone getting some oil and one of my friends was getting a starter for his 2000 dodge. I helped him put it in and noticed his spun and sounded better.

LSS i replaced mine with the same starter from autozone, lifetime warranty and was i think around $175 that was 40k ago and still goin strong.

If your starter sounds good and spins good compared to another CTD, then i would check elsewhere.



Is there pressure or vacuum in the fuel tank?

DFerverda,



Your idea about a tired starter turning a bit slower and causing longer starts than a fresh starter that spins faster to ignite the diesel via compression is an interesting thought.



The truck is still at the dealer and I haven't talked with them yet this morning so cannot pull off the fuel cap to check for pressure or vacuum. I assume that your concern is that if there is a strong vacuum then that would pull fuel backwards from the engine fuel rail, even when shutting down the engine for just a few seconds. Correct?

 

[DFerverda]

If you drive a few miles 8-10 ,stop and pull the cap, if you get vacuum the pressure release/rollover valve on the top of the fuel module is not working. If you get pressure, it could be a bad copper ring on a fuel injector, exc. There are a lot of threads on both.
I had the pressure release/rollover valve stuck on my truck and when you took off the cap it would suck air, and made the truck hard to start after shutoff, untill vacuum was gone.
There could be a ton of things that can cause your problem, you just need to figure out what it is, and that is sometimes not easy.....

Watch the dealer, they need money and got their eye on yours. .

 

[KevinSmith]

Kevin,



Can you clarify? Are you saying that a crack in the in-tank fuel pickup caused you similar hard start problems as mine (2-10 second starts with normally 2-3 seconds with a cool engine and 5-7-10 seconds with a hot engine)?



If so, how did you or the mechanic detect is was the fuel pickup? It's a big job to drop down the fuel tank to investigate so I'm hoping there was some other indicator that showed externally.



Thanks

My issue was hard starting below 3/4 of a tank of fuel. It took me a bit to realise that it only started hard after a certain point on the fuel guage. After I figured that out it seemed natural that the problem was in the tank and I went from there.

The hot and cold starting problems could be the diaphram going out in you injection pump. Any codes?



This is an exurpt from Blue Chip Diesel Performance Specialists



Other complaints with the VP44 trucks are frequent OR intermittent hard start hot or hard start cold. If, after either of these problems are observed, when the engine starts does the engine run rough for a few seconds and then clear up and run smooth, or does it immediately run smoothly? If the truck runs rough for a while this indicates a fuel delivery problem, such as fuel drainback or air getting into the fuel supply line. If you have rough running briefly after start you probably do NOT have an injection pump issue.



If the truck runs instantly perfectly when it finally starts or shows white smoke on start up, your problem is a faulty computer on the top of the injection pump. This component cannot be replaced in the field as it has to be programmed and calibrated to the mechanical part of the VP44 on the fancy test stand made just for VP44 pumps. You have to buy a replacement VP44 injection pump to correct this problem.

 

[SScandalis]

If you drive a few miles 8-10 ,stop and pull the cap, if you get vacuum the pressure release/rollover valve on the top of the fuel module is not working. If you get pressure, it could be a bad copper ring on a fuel injector, exc. There are a lot of threads on both.
I had the pressure release/rollover valve stuck on my truck and when you took off the cap it would suck air, and made the truck hard to start after shutoff, untill vacuum was gone.
There could be a ton of things that can cause your problem, you just need to figure out what it is, and that is sometimes not easy.....

Watch the dealer, they need money and got their eye on yours. .

DFerverda,

I have the truck back and checked the gas tank cap. There is no apparent vacuum or pressure observed when loosening the cap.

All that was done repair wise at the dealer was to reprogram the ECM module per TSB 18-015-00 for hard starts with winter fuel and/or engine at normal operating temperature.

The only code found by the Technician was one code - P0122 APP Sensor (accelerator petal position sensor).

I was charged 2 hours shop labor for the diagnosis, fuel pressure and flow test for the in-tank fuel pump that was put in 1 year ago and the EMC reprogramming.

 

[SScandalis]

My issue was hard starting below 3/4 of a tank of fuel. It took me a bit to realise that it only started hard after a certain point on the fuel guage. After I figured that out it seemed natural that the problem was in the tank and I went from there.

The hot and cold starting problems could be the diaphram going out in you injection pump. Any codes?



This is an exurpt from Blue Chip Diesel Performance Specialists



Other complaints with the VP44 trucks are frequent OR intermittent hard start hot or hard start cold. If, after either of these problems are observed, when the engine starts does the engine run rough for a few seconds and then clear up and run smooth, or does it immediately run smoothly? If the truck runs rough for a while this indicates a fuel delivery problem, such as fuel drainback or air getting into the fuel supply line. If you have rough running briefly after start you probably do NOT have an injection pump issue.



If the truck runs instantly perfectly when it finally starts or shows white smoke on start up, your problem is a faulty computer on the top of the injection pump. This component cannot be replaced in the field as it has to be programmed and calibrated to the mechanical part of the VP44 on the fancy test stand made just for VP44 pumps. You have to buy a replacement VP44 injection pump to correct this problem.

Kevin,

Thanks for the Blue Chip Diesel url reference.

My engine appears to start up perfectly when it finally starts. No rough idle or rough running, engine seems to be running smoothly. I've seen white smoke just a couple of times that I've observed in the last three weeks but maybe there were small puffs more often and that I haven't noticed.

Per the Blue Chip Diesel article this is similar to their symptom of a faulty computer on top of the VP44 injection pump.

Given that I was charged about $2,000 for a rebuilt VP44 four years ago and $600-$800 labor to replace it I'm a little reluctant to head that direction again right now.

As I've mentioned earlier, after the engine starts I've had "zero" driveability issues, even during a recent week of a heavy cab-over truck camper mounted and some mountain driving.

I have the truck back from the Dodge dealer now.

Cranking tests at the dealer and written on the receipt say they verified 1-3 second starts under cold and hot engine conditions after reprogramming the ECM per TSB 18-015-00.

When I brought in the truck last week, the technician verified 2-3 second starts with a cold engine and even longer start times with a hot/up to temperature engine. I was getting up to 5-7-10 second starts for the two to three weeks before so 1-3 second starts under both cold and hot engine conditions seems to be an improvement since the ECM reprogramming.

I'm now timing each engine start with a stopwatch and recording the engine start times along with the engine water temperature and how long the engine has been sitting before the restart.

In the last six starts the engine has started between about 1. 5 seconds and 3. 25 seconds of cranking.

The 3. 25 second start yesterday evening was after the engine had been warmed up then sat in a parking lot for about 60 minutes before this engine start sequence. The temperature was still about 160 deg on the temperature gauge when starting.

Unfortunately this 3. 25 second start resulted in the "Engine Check" light coming back on.

The Check Engine light been coming on every once in a while for the last 2-3 weeks, normally after one of the longer start sequences. Then the light resets after a few engine restarts.

The turn-key-on-3-times-and-leave-it-on to read the codes on the odometer doesn't seem to work on my 1998. 5 truck, but the only code found earlier by the Dodge Technician was one code - P0122 APP Sensor (accelerator petal position sensor). Perhaps this new "Check Engine" is that same code again.

 

[SScandalis]

Does anyone have more specific info on TSB 18-015-00 or know where I can read the entire TSB? Is it know whether the ECM reprogramming overcomes / works around a faulty VP44 computer?

The summary from the TDR area under the menu <Site Features/TSB's> for 1998 TSBs says the following.

Thanks

=============
18-015-00 A All Driveability enhancements for winter fuel use and for hard starts.

This bulletin applies to vehicles equipped with a 5. 9L-24V diesel engine built between engine serial numbers 56419738 to 56798357, with a date of manufacture of December 16, 1997 to November 15, 2000.

The customer may complain of poor driveability when winter fuel is used to power the engine. Or, the customer may complain of a hard or no-start condition, while the engine is at normal operating temperatures, when using any type of good quality diesel fuel. The poor driveability condition may occur only when either straight #1 diesel fuel is used or when other special cold climate winter blend fuels are in use.

The no-start or long engine crank condition may occur when attempting to restart the engine while the temperature of the engine is till close to its normal operating temperature. This hard hot restart condition may be experienced in all ambient climates, but may be more of a concern in warmer ambient climates. The repair involves selectively erasing and reprogramming the Cummins CM551 Engine Control Module (ECM) with new software.
=============

 

[JLandry]

Does anyone have more specific info on TSB 18-015-00 or know where I can read the entire TSB?

See attached file.



John L.

 

[SScandalis]

John, thanks for the full TSB.

Others,

Does anyone know where to get the technical details behind TSB 18-015-00 to determine whether the ECM reprogramming is overcoming / working around a possible faulty VP44 computer that is discussed on the Blue Chip Diesel Performance Specialists Blue Chip Diesel Performance Specialists web site?