Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) 2001 24V no start — electrical power issues

[Gordon Maney]

My circumstances or symptoms are these:

No start.

No voltage at the end of the lead for the lift pump when bumping the starter.

Using the Bluechip Diesel site’s diagnostic information you get this reference:

“OR... ..... the best way to be sure the VP 44 is getting battery voltage, is to verify that there is battery voltage to the removable plug on the injection pump. Remove plug and hold it so it looks like a smiley face. The bottom right pin is #7, batter voltage. The bottom left pin is#6, ground. Be sure to verify voltage during the “start” function of the ignition switch as well as the “run” position. ”

I do not get a voltage at pins 7 and 6 when in a key on mode. At this time I do not have a helper to do the cranking mode test. I could figure out a way to attach my VOM leads to the connector but I am not willing to risk damage of those connection points. I will make that measurement as soon as possible, to be thorough.

Bluechip provides this:

“If you don’t hear the lift pump, check fuse number 9 in the fuse box on the left side if the dash AND the “ASD” relay in the “ECM” (fuse box under the hood). Don’t assume the injection pump is getting battery voltage if you hear the lift pump running when you bump the key, just because the lift pump and injection pump BOTH run off the same ASD relay in the PDC. The lift pump needs 12 volt power from the ASD circuit AND the PCM to run. ”

I have examined fuse 9 [checking it with an ohmmeter] in the left end of the dash board and have substituted a known good relay for the ASD relay in the PCM. I tested the relay by using it to power the wiper motor.

I have a suspicion that the lift pump had not been powered for some time. That because over a period of years, whenever changing a fuel filter, I could never hear the lift pump run if I bumped the starter. I always filled the filter canister manually, as bumping the starter caused no effect. The odd thing is that if the injection pump had never been getting a voltage... . It never would have been able to run. So... . what then?

In summary, I don’t seem to have a voltage at the injection pump or at the lift pump power lead. Using half of a proper Deutsch connector set, I made up a jumper lead allowing me to power the lift pump directly off the battery.

I will mention here that I also installed a Raptor pump and big line kit. My jumper lead is actually powering the Raptor harness. The pump works fine when powered that way and at my test gauge installed at the VP44 inlet fitting I am getting 15 psi. The pump did a beautiful job of rapidly filling the filter canister and I used to to bleed out at the VP44 inlet fitting gauge port. I crank and get fuel from loosened injector fittings.

I have the gnawing feeling I am not seeing something here. I have been poring over my official Dodge truck manuals and fail to find diagnostic information for injection system as a whole. They offer diagnostic info for some components.

A guess suggests that the ECM is not getting a voltage, or the ECM is bad. I don’t know how to pursue that further. I am hoping for some direction here.

I realize it is Christmas and all of you are wrapping presents and baking pies. I am about to start doing the same. I do hope to do this voltage test [with helper] a bit later, to verify there is no voltage present at the VP44 even under cranking. Otherwise, the really serious work will not resume until the 26th.

There is much experience here; please share your thoughts.

Merry Christmas to you, and don't get eggnog on your sweater... .

 

[Gordon Maney]

Also, as advised here... .

YouTube - VP-44 Install and Removal Series 5a of 5

... I replaced what is termed the cam position sensor in this video.

 

[Gordon Maney]

Two more pieces of information.

As advised here... .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARY5eQbC5R4

... I replaced what is termed the cam position sensor in this video.


The truck sets one code — 1694 — No CCD Messages Received From ECM.

It does not set any ECM code.

 

[Sticks]

Start simple. Check the connections at the ECM and the PCM to make sure they are connected and not corroded.

Follow the harness as much as possible to look for rub through spots.

Check and double check the fuses both in the cab, and the PDC under the hood. Test light works best as a "go/no go" indicator at both sides of the fuse.

If all that is good, retrace the "testing the VP" instructions you posted. Pin #7 with a volt meter (positive lead @ #7, negative @ battery negative = 12. ? VDC with ignition on) and at pin #6 there should be 0 volts (if there is voltage, you have bigger issues). Ohm meter should show less than . 5 ohms from pin #6 to battery negative.

 

[Gordon Maney]

Start simple. Check the connections at the ECM and the PCM to make sure they are connected and not corroded.

Follow the harness as much as possible to look for rub through spots.

Check and double check the fuses both in the cab, and the PDC under the hood. Test light works best as a "go/no go" indicator at both sides of the fuse.

If all that is good, retrace the "testing the VP" instructions you posted. Pin #7 with a volt meter (positive lead @ #7, negative @ battery negative = 12. ? VDC with ignition on) and at pin #6 there should be 0 volts (if there is voltage, you have bigger issues). Ohm meter should show less than . 5 ohms from pin #6 to battery negative.

You point out one error I made. I was taking my voltage reading across pins 7 & 6 [positive lead to 7], not from each to ground. Thank you

Also, I have not examined connectors at the PCM. The connectors at the ECM look really nice, I examined both the connector and the pins presented by the ECM.

 

[Sticks]

Just got done looking over my 02bre manual and it has didly for injection pump diagnostics.

I no longer have access to All Data, where I know they had some good info.

Time and numerous hits to the head have erased the more complex diagnostics steps.

First and foremost I would run the trouble shooting tree for the 1694 code.

 

[Gordon Maney]

Just got done looking over my 02bre manual and it has didly for injection pump diagnostics.

I no longer have access to All Data, where I know they had some good info.

Time and numerous hits to the head have erased the more complex diagnostics steps.

First and foremost I would run the trouble shooting tree for the 1694 code.

Possibly the dumb question of the day... . where do I find the troubleshooting tree for the 1694 code?

 

[Sticks]

Pin 6 gets it's ground from pins 30 and 49 at the ECM, and it appears the PCM - pins 31, 32 and the datalink. The PCM I may have issue with, as I have found numerous errors in the manual.

 

[Sticks]

Possibly the dumb question of the day... . where do I find the troubleshooting tree for the 1694 code?

Hopefully someone will post it. My manual (another reason I hate it - no trouble shooting trees) only has a list of DTC's. Again with the "I miss having All Data"

 

[JLandry]

Possibly the dumb question of the day... . where do I find the troubleshooting tree for the 1694 code?

Attached.



John L.

 

[Gordon Maney]

Attached.

John L.

What is a DRB? I don't understand the terms body and cluster in this context.

This is apparently a piece of test equipment I don't have.

What is CCD?

What is a datalink connector?

Thank you... .

 

[JLandry]

What is a DRB?

DRB refers to Chrysler's "Diagnostic Readout Box" III, a handheld diagnostic computer. These can be purchased used on eBay for about $1500 to $3500. Without one you can't perform some diagnostic routines called for in the Dodge Diagnostic Manual, but obviously you can still check for trouble codes (DTC) using any OBDII scan tool, and you can test the wiring using a multimeter.

What is CCD?

It means "Chrysler Collision Detection" which is the name for the communications network Chrysler used in the vehicle to allow the onboard computer modules to talk to each another. In this context, "collision detection" refers to a method the network uses to resolve communication conficts on the network... not a vehicle collision.

What is a datalink connector?

That's the OBDII port under the dash.



John L.

 

[Gordon Maney]

To those who take voltage tests of leads to ECM or PCM, are you using a test light that pierces the insulation, or are you using some other method?

I read about breakout boxes. Is anyone using those? If so, is there a best source for an appropriate version?

The manual says do not paint the back of the ECM, as it will prevent a good ground. It seems odd they would depend on mounting of it for ground, but I am certainly going to check that for good ground.

I will work to verify every ground connection anywhere on the engine that could have an effect. Are there any ground points that come to anyone's mind?

 

[Sticks]

To those who take voltage tests of leads to ECM or PCM, are you using a test light that pierces the insulation, or are you using some other method?

I try to avoid piercing the insulation whenever possible. If the circuit is a non sensitive line, I use a test light just to see if there is power. Computer or sensor circuits, voltmeter, and either back probe the connector, or adapters to check the connector pins.

I read about breakout boxes. Is anyone using those? If so, is there a best source for an appropriate version?

I have yet to see one for a Dodge.

The manual says do not paint the back of the ECM, as it will prevent a good ground. It seems odd they would depend on mounting of it for ground, but I am certainly going to check that for good ground.



I will work to verify every ground connection anywhere on the engine that could have an effect. Are there any ground points that come to anyone's mind?

Uuuuhhh, every single ground on the vehicle. Start with the batteries, and work your way from there. Age of the vehicle, climate, and driving conditions will have a lot of impact on ground connections. Even being anal like me and keeping the engine compartment washed will eventually come back to bite me in the butt.



If you are having ECM/PCM issues, clean the mounting points with a scotch brite pad and re-mount, and do the same with any ground straps close by.

 

[Gordon Maney]

Please tell me more about what you term adapters to check the connector pins. These are commercially available items?

I have been very careful handling the ECM connector and pins, for example, as it seems those must be highly critical with respect to cleanliness and quality of fit.

Thank you for the direction on ground quality. I will pursue that.

 

[Sticks]

The best thing for a shade tree mechanic is to head to a junk yard with some wire cutters and find another vehicle with the same style connectors (small barrel & pin, large barrel and pin, , small spade M & F, large spade M & F), hit a radio shack for some small tube heat shrink to insulate the F connectors. Then you can either try to take apart the connectors, or break them apart to get the terminals.



Yes, you can buy specially made adapters put they are pricey. Easier and cheaper to make your own.



Best Price Guarantee on Waekon 77203 at ToolTopia.com



Great deal on Waekon 77202 at ToolTopia.com

 

[Gordon Maney]

The best thing for a shade tree mechanic is to head to a junk yard with some wire cutters and find another vehicle with the same style connectors (small barrel & pin, large barrel and pin, , small spade M & F, large spade M & F), hit a radio shack for some small tube heat shrink to insulate the F connectors. Then you can either try to take apart the connectors, or break them apart to get the terminals.

Yes, you can buy specially made adapters put they are pricey. Easier and cheaper to make your own.

Best Price Guarantee on Waekon 77203 at ToolTopia.com

Great deal on Waekon 77202 at ToolTopia.com

You have a great idea. I am not familiar with the barrel and pin connectors you describe. Do you have a link to a photo?

I believe I should buy some of these Waekon pieces you refer us to.

 

[Sticks]

You have a great idea. I am not familiar with the barrel and pin connectors you describe. Do you have a link to a photo?



I believe I should buy some of these Waekon pieces you refer us to.

The barrel and pin type are the ones on the ECM/PCM, and IIRC, several of your sensors. Spade terminals are flat rectangular males, and box shaped females.



You can damage either style (female) by trying to probe them with test leads or test lights. Goes back to the "Right tool for the job".



Also good to be able to know when you are getting in over your head, and it is time to take it to a reputable shop.



I've made an awful lot of money on people that try to do something and end up causing more damage, or bring me a vehicle and a box of parts. "Flat Rate" goes out the window and turns into "Time and Materials", because I have to return the vehicle to assembled status, diagnose, then repair. What was a $90 diagnostic fee just went to $500 + parts for me to tell you what is wrong with your vehicle, then I tell you what it is going to cost to fix it.



No offense Gordon, but I think you are getting in over your head with your problem. The diagnostic tree can be performed without a DRB III, but you really need to know what you are doing, what to avoid doing at all costs, and what can happen if you error.



Literally in the time span of a eye blink, you can smoke your ECM/PCM by something so simple as shorting across two terminals in a connector, or "Was that pin 6 or 32?" because you turned the connector over.

 

[Gordon Maney]

I discovered an extremely poor [loose and dirty] ground connection at the PCM. This with respect to a ground cable running from it to the firewall. I have also cleaned other grounds, including the one near the location of the original lift pump.

Whether I had this before and did not notice it, or it is new since ground cleaning, now when I connect the first battery ground, connecting battery power, I get a tiny spark. My digital multimeter says it is a 20 milliamp current draw with nothing on. Nothing I am aware of other than perhaps the digital clock in the radio. It makes a spark, then a second touch makes no spark. Like if you had discharged a capacitor. Take it off, wait a while, touch it again, makes another spark. Then another rapid touch makes no spark.

Thoughts on that? Normal? It seemed high to me, but admit to never having measured that.

 

[Sticks]

20 milliamps, Not enough for me to be concerned about. ECM, PCM, clock, radio, and various other electrical items in you vehicle are constantly drawing power even with the key off.

One of those items is apparently heavily dependent on that ground connection.

That is only a 2. 53 watt draw, which might be a single LED.