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WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CI4 and CJ4 SYNTETIC OILS

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mymtnhauler

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In issue 56, 57, and 58 written by John Martin and Robert Patton. These gentlemen gave an analysis of a number of different oils including 4 synthetics. Three were CI4 and one CJ4. Knowing these articles were written in 2007, is the CI4 synthetics still available, and are there more of the CI4 synthetic out there? Or have they to been changed over to CJ4 as well?#@$%! Now to my question. Is there as large a difference between the two as there is between CI4 dino and the CJ4 dino?
 
Last and only word on synthetics (in my humble opine) is AMSOIL, period. Do the research, find a dealer, or become one and get the data. AMSOIL exceeds all others. I've used it exclusively since 1975 except for one big mistake I made. While on a trip to Canada I changed from 15/40 to 5/30 Chevron oil at a gas station back in the day when they still had "full service". . I had a 89 GMC Safari w/4. 3 V6. It had about 89K on it if I recall and always had Amsoil in it UNTIL I thought I should do a mid trip oil change. Right after the change to Chevron 5/30 it started to smoke.

After I got home two weeks later I dumped the petro junk out and back to AMSOIL. It never stopped smoking until I retired it @ 175K. Up to the point before I made the major error of doing a temporary switch, it was flawless. Coincidence ? Maybe, but I learned from that I'd never switch from syn to petro.

My 2 cents.

P. S. AMSOIL HDD (heavy duty diesel) 5w30. NOT 15/40. The HDD is designed for all except for the new 6. 7.
 
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mymtnhauler, I started using Amsoil a few years ago, and finally this year decided to send out a sample for testing with oil that had been in the truck for 13 months and had 10K on it. I was amazed at the results, no detectable degradation of the oil, no detectable wear metals, soot levels etc... , simply amazing! I became an Amsoil dealer a couple years ago, if you would like to buy wholesale send me your contact info, I can offer you wholesale dealer pricing, it's as easy as a phone call. -- email address removed --
 
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Not here to start another oil war. I would like info on all the available CI4 synthetics? If all oils ( including synthetics ) go CJ4, will the syns be better than dino or not? Also is there a website that has a complete breakdown of components in synthetic and conventional oils?
 
CJ-4 oils are specified for 2007 and newer engines complying with the the updated EPA regulations and the ULSD fuels. In the pre 2007 engines with less restrictive EPA regs, and less "involved" egr systems, the CI-4 oils are recommended. You can use the CJ-4 oils in the earlier engines, but not vice-versa. Amsoil offers 2 CJ-4 oils, and 4 CI-4 rated oils, and will continue to do so. Most of the major commercial oil/lube manufacturers have stopped making the CI-4 oils, concentrating their market on the latest ratings. I'm not aware of a website that offers a breakdown of the components in synthetic and conventional oils, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. Whenever I have questions like that, I contact Amsoil tech support... AMSOIL - Synthetic Oil, Motor and Engine Oil, Lubricants, Air Filters, Oil Filters and Greases
 
SO, seems to be lots of the usual synthetic cheer-leading here - but NO reply to the actual question:



Now to my question. Is there as large a difference between the two as there is between CI4 dino and the CJ4 dino?



:-laf:-laf:-laf



Anyone wanna try again? :p
 
SO, seems to be lots of the usual synthetic cheer-leading here - but NO reply to the actual question:







:-laf:-laf:-laf



Anyone wanna try again? :p



Good point Gary! I asked because I need to change oil soon and if I can't find CI4 dino locally I'll have to change too syn. #@$%!
 
I have UOAs from both Rotella CI-4 and CJ-4, and saw no real difference between the two. I believe the "beneficial" additives lost in the CJ-4 reformulation (that are normally seen in the CI-4) were offset by other changes to the oil's chemistry.



FWIW, I went to the synthetic side for a short time... in UOAs, there was no obvious benefit.
 
Here is an article I read regarding the API CJ-4 Oils. This article was written by an Oil engineer, and was in a Magazine I subscribe to, along with others I get.



API CJ-4 oils have additive systems specially designed to improve the protection of both the engine power system and advanced emissions control systems like DPFs. Use of these new oils will help maintain the life of the emission control system as required for regulatory compliance. API CJ-4 oils are formulated for improved wear protection, deposit and oil consumption control, soot-related viscosity control, prevention of viscosity loss from shearing, used oil low-temperature pumpability, and protection from thermal and oxidative breakdown when compared to previous API performance categories.



API CJ-4 oils are designed to be a significant upgrade over previous oil specifications. Since 2002, engines that have been equipped with exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) systems increase the soot loading of the oil and the oil temperature. Higher soot levels require better wear protection from the oil not incorporated into previous oils. A "substantial" improvement in capability of holding soot in suspension has been shown with CJ-4 oils using various engine tests (Mack T-11, Cummins ISM) designed specifically for gauging performance in the field. Poor soot holding capability can cause Engine deposits, sludge, impaired lubrication and oil flow. [END QUOTE]



The article also goes on to say:
Today's EGR engines are putting as much as 30% of the exhaust gas back into the engine. Engines built between 2002 and 2007 were adding 15% or more exhaust gas into the engine. Crankcase ventilation systems have been closed, increasing the potential for trapping exhaust by-products which can and do get into the oil. One of the primary modes of valve-train wear is associated with soot particles in the engine. It is critical to have strong dispersant characteristics in the oil to keep the soot particles from agglomerating. It is essential to the health of the engine that these particles remain small and suspended in the oil. [END QUOTE]



Now to the differences between mineral based oils and Synthetics:



ALL oils start with a "Base Oil", which is about 85-90 percent of the finished product, and rest of the finished product is additives.



There are currently three different classes of "Base stocks" to make engine oil from. Mineral based, Highly Refined Mineral oil, and the synthetic based oils.

Mineral oils are formed through decomposition of a variety of organic matter such as fish, sea weed, trees, birds, grass, dinosaurs, etc.



Highly Refined Mineral Oils are just that. They are more refined which involves a variety of separation, hence a better Base oil to start from, but more costly to produce than petroleum.



Synthetic Base stocks in contrast to petroleum are built up from one or more specific organic compounds. They are well defined and are comprised of particular molecule types that have been designed for specific performance characteristics. One distinct advantage of synthetics is that they can be "tailor made" to fit the requirements of the application.



There are currently 4 suitable synthetic base lubricants; Polyalphaolefin (PAO's), Synthetic Esters which include Dibasic Acid Esters (Diesters), Polyol Esters, and Polyalkylene Glycols (PAGs). The most common is the (PAO) Polyalphaolefin.



Of course each has their advantages and disadvantages. This is why the Amsoil Company uses a combination of "Synthetic Base stocks" to get the very best there is to offer. It is more costly, but in the long run, it becomes less expensive, as the oil provides excellent lubricity, improved energy efficiency, high viscosity index, low pour points(as low as -72 F. ) excellent thermal and oxidative stability, high flash and fire points, and is fire resistance. And will last longer in use. (Longer oil drain intervals)



Group I base oils can have a mix of different hydrocarbon chains, with relatively little uniformity; these oils are the least refined. They are usually not used for autos.



Group II is the most common base oils in “dino juice,” with good performance in most areas except cold temperature viscosity.



Group III is called synthetic, and has high molecular uniformity and stability. Group III oil bases are used in most synthetic oils.



Group IV is chemically engineered stocks, arguably with the highest performance and longevity.





Wayne
 
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As always, thanks Wayne! Did the last part of that get cut off?

Can you speak concerning the CI4 vs CJ4 oils that amsoil offers? Do you have the amount of ZDDP in each? Specifically, the commond diesel oils... the 5w-40 CJ4 synthetic and the marine diesel CI4 15w-40 synthetic.

If I understand correctly, the CJ formulation is better at holding increased soot in suspension while maintaining lubricity, etc. However, our trucks (at least pre 07. 5) do not have any appreciable EGR, with the exception of a slight amount of in-cylinder carry over. Thus, the would the marine diesel 15w-40 be possibly the best choice for us?

--Eric
 
As always, thanks Wayne! Did the last part of that get cut off?



Can you speak concerning the CI4 vs CJ4 oils that amsoil offers? Do you have the amount of ZDDP in each? Specifically, the commond diesel oils... the 5w-40 CJ4 synthetic and the marine diesel CI4 15w-40 synthetic.



If I understand correctly, the CJ formulation is better at holding increased soot in suspension while maintaining lubricity, etc. However, our trucks (at least pre 07. 5) do not have any appreciable EGR, with the exception of a slight amount of in-cylinder carry over. Thus, the would the marine diesel 15w-40 be possibly the best choice for us?



--Eric

I can not tell you what amounts of additives, such as ZDDP are in any of the Amsoil oils, as they are proprietory.



I can give you my opinion on the use of the AME 15W-40 for pre-2007 Diesel Engines and that is, I think the CI-4+ oil is a better choice, and have better long-drain abilities for these pre 2007 Engines such as my 5. 9L. I base that opinion on the fact the Amsoil (AME) 15W-40 has a higher TBN of 12+ verses the (DME)15W-40 TBN of 10. 4. There are other factors as well, but I won't get into that here.



Wayne
 
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