Ive been dreaming this up for a while now. But i want to see if there is any one out there who has actually done it. Do yall know of ANY one who has put an eaton 10 speed transmission in a dodge? ive seen a guy on you tube with the chevy cummins he put a 10 speed behind. is there any one out there that has put any twin countershaft nonsynro transmission in a dodge? 8, 9, 10, 13, 15, 18 speed? Ive put allison autos in yard tractors at work, their 4spd autos that go behind the b-series, and we have some c-series. ive done countless clutches in the 10speeds, 14 and 15. 5 inch double disc clutches, those eatons weigh close to 600lbs. i think the meritors and rockwells are little lighter. i hate those transmissions, dont hold up in comparison to the eaton. its like compairing an craftsman ratchet to a snap-on ratchet. anyway, i know there are flywheel houseing out ther for it, its just getting the dodge to fit over it, and addapting the np205 to the back of it thats got me thinking. i much prefer a nonsyncro transmission. so much easier on your clutch leg, and just makes more sense from a mechanic stand point. since i work on class 8 trucks, i keep trying to find ways to make my dodge more like one. if i could just rig up air brakes for it, oh how great that would be. air is so much more practical than hydraulics. ok enough of my pipe dreams :-laf any body got a clue or two about a 10spd dodge cummins?
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Eaton 10 Speed....
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NIsaacs
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Ooh, my kinda guy!
Can't say I have done one or seen one, however I know it is possible. I am going to put one in my 74' Ford some day. See sig. it is 2 wheel drive tho.
The smallest bellhousing for the smallest Eaton 10spd is the SAE#2, still kinda big. You will need a body lift. The remote mount style 205 should work.
You will need an overdrive model or super high axle gears. The RTO 510 (kinda old) or RTO 610, RTO 6610 are small enough to fit easy.
I have air maxie brakes on my Ford, get lotsa looks when I pull up and park!!
I would like to pick your brain about this fun project.
Nick
Can't say I have done one or seen one, however I know it is possible. I am going to put one in my 74' Ford some day. See sig. it is 2 wheel drive tho.
The smallest bellhousing for the smallest Eaton 10spd is the SAE#2, still kinda big. You will need a body lift. The remote mount style 205 should work.
You will need an overdrive model or super high axle gears. The RTO 510 (kinda old) or RTO 610, RTO 6610 are small enough to fit easy.
I have air maxie brakes on my Ford, get lotsa looks when I pull up and park!!
I would like to pick your brain about this fun project.
Nick
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Now if someone can just come up with a real "Jake Brake" for a 5. 9... . They would sell like hot cakes!! I too have seen the Chevy with the 10 speed and it's awesome! 10-18 speed in any pickup would require a lot of time and a lot of fab work making crossmembers and transmission tunnel and body lift to make it all fit...
I'm really wanting twin sticks though.
YouTube - 4-53T 2 stroke detroit diesel and 2 sticks shifting
There is another one with a '64 Chevy and 353 Detroit that has a Jake
YouTube - MY 64 Chevy Detroit Diesel 353N Jake brakes
I'm really wanting twin sticks though.
YouTube - 4-53T 2 stroke detroit diesel and 2 sticks shifting
There is another one with a '64 Chevy and 353 Detroit that has a Jake
YouTube - MY 64 Chevy Detroit Diesel 353N Jake brakes
haha yeah ive seen the twin stick behind the detroit. ive got to say, the 2 cycle detroit is by far my most favorite engine ever made. granted the b-series is best for all around use and reliability, but ive found no better sound in this world than a 8v-71 turbo fed blower WOT, thers just nothing like it (lets not even get into the 16v-71). they are a blast to work on. can make a man loose his religion when trying to set the fuel rack hahha, thats pretty entertaining to watch. if youve ever herd one run away, its the eiryest sound youve ever herd. i herd an 8v-71 change tune 3 times before we got it choked down, an a 6-71 hit such a high pitch it made the hair on your neck stand up.
i love the idea of the double stick transmission, but only for a farm truck, its enough work drivin in town with a syncro transmission with worn out syncros, clutching, still having to match rpms.
as far as the true engine brake goes, man ive layed in bed sooo many nights racking my brain about how to make this work. heres my thought. first, your main and bigist obstacle, fuel. how could you cut out a cylinders fuel supply with a PLN fuel system, at will, while driving down the road?? with a EUI fuel system its just too easy, dont sent voltage to the injector solenoid, injector rocker still does its thing, but theres no fuel in the nozzle to be injected, all the while the other side of the injector rocker is pressurizing the oil in the jake oil rail holding the exhaust valves open. the most brilliant design ever. but, how to make it work with a PLN fuel system???? it goes without saying, youd have to custom design a whole new valve cover that would allow room for the jake assembly while still being able to seal to the 12 valve head which has the six individual valvecover surfaces. i honestly dont see it as possible. besides just making the room for it on the head, there is:
A. ) no injector rocker, the fuel delivery is totally seprate from the valve operation
B. ) with the PLN system i dont see it being possible to deny fuel from the injector if the VE/P-pump is in operation it would have to have an intermediat valve that would allow for the fuel to be routed to the return an never reach the injector. i cant emagine the system it would take to design that. i could work though, one solenoid block, 6 inlets 12 outlets, an electronic controled 2 way vavle per orifice, when the jakes are activated the voltage used in parralel to activate the fuel diversion and close the oil passage in the jake oil rail, an to pressurize the oil to depress the exhaust valve at almost exactly TDC... mhhh yet another mystery
some day i may get an old junk 12valve an hack at this pipe dream, it would be a fun project.
back to the 10 speed, yeah with a 3. 54 rear end that transmission would run outa gears right quick. the single axle internationals we run at work have i believe 2. 88 rear ends. on the extreme other end of the spectrum, the yard tractors with the allison autos, have a 9. 7 or somthing between 9-10 rear end. unbelieveable. to see a b-series pull 80,000+lbs, awesome.
i love the idea of the double stick transmission, but only for a farm truck, its enough work drivin in town with a syncro transmission with worn out syncros, clutching, still having to match rpms.
as far as the true engine brake goes, man ive layed in bed sooo many nights racking my brain about how to make this work. heres my thought. first, your main and bigist obstacle, fuel. how could you cut out a cylinders fuel supply with a PLN fuel system, at will, while driving down the road?? with a EUI fuel system its just too easy, dont sent voltage to the injector solenoid, injector rocker still does its thing, but theres no fuel in the nozzle to be injected, all the while the other side of the injector rocker is pressurizing the oil in the jake oil rail holding the exhaust valves open. the most brilliant design ever. but, how to make it work with a PLN fuel system???? it goes without saying, youd have to custom design a whole new valve cover that would allow room for the jake assembly while still being able to seal to the 12 valve head which has the six individual valvecover surfaces. i honestly dont see it as possible. besides just making the room for it on the head, there is:
A. ) no injector rocker, the fuel delivery is totally seprate from the valve operation
B. ) with the PLN system i dont see it being possible to deny fuel from the injector if the VE/P-pump is in operation it would have to have an intermediat valve that would allow for the fuel to be routed to the return an never reach the injector. i cant emagine the system it would take to design that. i could work though, one solenoid block, 6 inlets 12 outlets, an electronic controled 2 way vavle per orifice, when the jakes are activated the voltage used in parralel to activate the fuel diversion and close the oil passage in the jake oil rail, an to pressurize the oil to depress the exhaust valve at almost exactly TDC... mhhh yet another mystery
some day i may get an old junk 12valve an hack at this pipe dream, it would be a fun project. back to the 10 speed, yeah with a 3. 54 rear end that transmission would run outa gears right quick. the single axle internationals we run at work have i believe 2. 88 rear ends. on the extreme other end of the spectrum, the yard tractors with the allison autos, have a 9. 7 or somthing between 9-10 rear end. unbelieveable. to see a b-series pull 80,000+lbs, awesome.
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hahha true, just get a can of starting fluid, brake clean, something of that flavor, disconect the ground from the grid heater, and run her wide open on that till she starts hittin on diesel. these engines running at the governor on just starting fluid sound very unique, its pretty cool to hear how quiet they are then you hear the diesel start to fire and then its gets back to the same old clatter
Years ago I saw a 92 club cab with an Eaton 10 speed in it, even had a decal on the fender to say so. It was a 2WD and had a 3 or 4" body lift on it to clear the wide bell housing. It looked like a 4 X 4 at first. I don't know what gears it had in the diff. You could add a divorced NP205 behind it. Shadrach
BLNRAY, very true, and a great idea, but id reather lift my left leg once rather than 6 times to get to cruising speed, an in any type of traffic, id rather just move my right arm then be workin the left leg too. i like the way you think though. i saw an add in a magazine a few years back for a kit, to allow you to use the low side of your transfer case while in 2wd, to basically just have a low split for each gear. pretty interesting.
The problem with the GV unit is the gear ratio doesn't evenly split the ratios.
A 3rd-over to fourth shift doesn't drop nearly as much rpm as the 3rd to 3rd-over shift.
There was a thread on trying to get the company to make a run of a different ratio for a test run, but I can't find it. IIRC it was before 2000.
that makes sense. the class 8 electronic engines have a program called progressive shift, its a good theory, but really is a junk system. what it basically does is moniter load to power ratio. in simply terms, if it senses your pulling a hill with a heavier load it will adjust governed rpm per gear appropriotly. but it never works the way you want it to. it ends up being a hazzard, you can be in 9-10 gear, try droppin to 8 to pass an when you get into the lower gear hoping to tach up the engine an pull on past, the progressive shift cuts in an kills it, so where you were at 1500 rpm in 10th goin 67mph, an try to hit 8th and run 23rpm to get that umph, 8th is cut back so that you can reach the rpm needed to get into gear but once your in a try to pull it is dead untill you drop back to 1500. very agrivating for drivers... in the same sense, you can be taking off, rowing through the gears, and have a "dead gear", usually its 7th thats dead, you go from 6th to 7th and there is no increse in speed or power. you can fool the programer by reaching the governor (1800rpm) in a gear and instead of upshifting, down shift (2300-2500rpm) and then quickly upshift, and keep the engine between 2100-2500rpm through out the gears untill you hit 10th and the speed limiter kicks you back to the right rpm for max speed in 10th. hahah they are fun to play with, but nothin beats an old mechanical engine, when you hammer down, she goes.
While I applaud the quest for a truly HD manual transmission, I must heartily disagree with your statement that air brakes would be so much more practical than hydraulics on these pickups.
Air brakes have ONE advantage over hydraulic brakes: The system can be repeatedly disconnected and re-connected easily without the bleeding problems a hydraulic system would have. Dropping and hooking trailers is the only reason semis have air brakes.
That's it.
Air brakes are no where near as sensitive as hydraulics. Air compresses, hydraulic fluid does not and gives more precise brake feel and control. Air brakes require an air compressor, regulator, holding tank, air lines, brake chambers, air drier, etc. Lots of stuff. Heavy, bulky, expensive stuff. They are subject to air line freezing, too.
As for the transmission, it has been too many years to remember whether they were Rockwells or Eatons, but we had a bunch of single-axle city tractors with Cummins L10 motors and 7-speeds. Those trannies took a major amount of abuse and held up well for many thousands of city miles.
Again, if you opt for a 10-speed, or 13 or 15, you will need a compressed air source to shift ranges. The seven doesn't present that problem and it was only about the same size (guessing) as an NV5600 which weighs over 500 pounds. I always thought it would make a great 4x4 transmission if a guy could get an NP205 behind it. Of course, you can always go to a divorced setup.
Air brakes have ONE advantage over hydraulic brakes: The system can be repeatedly disconnected and re-connected easily without the bleeding problems a hydraulic system would have. Dropping and hooking trailers is the only reason semis have air brakes.
That's it.
Air brakes are no where near as sensitive as hydraulics. Air compresses, hydraulic fluid does not and gives more precise brake feel and control. Air brakes require an air compressor, regulator, holding tank, air lines, brake chambers, air drier, etc. Lots of stuff. Heavy, bulky, expensive stuff. They are subject to air line freezing, too.
As for the transmission, it has been too many years to remember whether they were Rockwells or Eatons, but we had a bunch of single-axle city tractors with Cummins L10 motors and 7-speeds. Those trannies took a major amount of abuse and held up well for many thousands of city miles.
Again, if you opt for a 10-speed, or 13 or 15, you will need a compressed air source to shift ranges. The seven doesn't present that problem and it was only about the same size (guessing) as an NV5600 which weighs over 500 pounds. I always thought it would make a great 4x4 transmission if a guy could get an NP205 behind it. Of course, you can always go to a divorced setup.
Spicer
Scott it probably was the Spicer 7 speed, I drove a Freightliner COE with a 300 and 7 and it took a while to get used to the shift pattern after rowing a 10 speed or 13 speed Roadranger. Memories.....
Ken
Scott it probably was the Spicer 7 speed, I drove a Freightliner COE with a 300 and 7 and it took a while to get used to the shift pattern after rowing a 10 speed or 13 speed Roadranger. Memories.....
Ken
Not likely
Last I looked the air compressor ran off a gear off the front of the engine on the 300 L10. That was a long time ago... .
Last I looked the air compressor ran off a gear off the front of the engine on the 300 L10. That was a long time ago... .
I would think the first 5 holes would be to low with a 10 speed eaton. Unless you were trying to move a tank.
There is an aftermarket kit for mounting an air compressor ontop the alternator, you put a differnt pully on the alt, an it runs a belt for the compressor. the industrial b-series run the cummins air compressor off the gear housing. where you would have your vaccum pump and ps pump on the dodge, you have the compressor and hydraulic pump.
Ah air brakes. Well SRath, i must disagree with you here. there are many more advantages to air brakes over hydraulic brakes, and dropping and hookings trailers is by far NOT the only reasons class 8 tractors have air brakes. if that were the case, why do strait trucks, rollbacks, coach buses, etc, use air brakes. it all boils down to one main factor, SAFETY. air brakes are much more reliable than hydraulic brakes in the event of a failure. for example the park brake system, for those not familiar with a spring brake chamber, the chamber has two seprate halves, one half contains the coil spring, that has enough force to litterally take off a mans head, the other half is just an empty chamber with a diaphram. when you mash the valve in the dash and release the brakes, air is applied to the spring side, the psi on the diapram overcomes the spring pressure and compresses it, therefor removing load from the slack adjuster and allowing the S-Cam to rotate back and the shoes to pull away from the drums. when the service brake (foot pedal) is applied, air is sent to the other half of the chamber using air against the diaphram to push the rod connected to the slack adjuster and apply the brakes. for the record, air brakes are MUCH more sensitive than hydraulic brakes. with hydraulic brakes, when you push the pedal you are using the force from your leg to push that fluid to the calipers with the help of a booster. with air brakes, when you push that pedal, you are simply opening a 2 stage valve and allowing a pressure that is already present to flow into the brake chambers. that is why they are so responsive, because youre opeing a valve with near 120 psi behind it. thats why when tractors bobtail they can lock up the brakes so easy, because they are so touchy.
in the event of a leak in the system, with hydraulics, your SOL, once your precious fluid is gone, you can kiss your braking ability by by. with air brakes, the compressor will continue to pump air as long as it needs untill the governor opens the popets an lets it free wheel. if you are hauling a load, and blow a brake like, say its hydraulic, there go your brakes, no chance of stoping, if its air, then the spring brake decompresses and the brakes are mechanically applied. that is the beauty of air brakes, with out air the vehicle can not move. there are some awesome valves out there for differnt applications too, for example, say you got a 53' with 80k on it, you loose tractor brakes, you cant stop that load with your foot pedal now, but you can pull the trailer hand valve and apply trailer brakes to come to a stop. you dont have this option in a strait truck, so if you loose primary air (air used to apply drive axle brakes and release park brakes(the park brake stays released due to air being traped by a check valve. )secondary air is for steer axle brakes and accesrories) youve lost all but your steer brakes, but when you apply the brake pedal, it uses the secondary air that you have, to activate a valve that releases air from park side of the chamber to produce a mechanical application at the drive axles. this can be repeated 8+ times before all air is exhausted and the brakes lock down.
as far as lines icing up, a good driver should drain his tanks daily, at the least his supply tank. if he fogets and gets some condesation build up, shame on him, dump a little alchohol and get back on the road. another practical benifit of air brakes, ABS, with hydraulic, you have to recover the fluid in an ABS event, with air brakes, the air is simply exhausted. hydraulic brakes have a bunch of componants to deal with to, fluid resevior, booster, master cylinders, slave cylinders, calipers, wheel cylinders, etc. air brakes dont have too much more than that, compressor, governor, airdryer(not neccesary), tanks (thats the bulkiest part of the system), chambers, slacks. and with the access of air, you can run air ride suspension, air horns, air ride cab, air ride seat, air lockers for drive axles, air locking hubs for 4x4, the list goes on. dont mean to rag on you, or chew your ear off, but i love air brakes, and am pretty pasionate about them. if it was my way, there wouldnt be anything but air brakes, i know a number of ole boys that would agree with that statement
Ah air brakes. Well SRath, i must disagree with you here. there are many more advantages to air brakes over hydraulic brakes, and dropping and hookings trailers is by far NOT the only reasons class 8 tractors have air brakes. if that were the case, why do strait trucks, rollbacks, coach buses, etc, use air brakes. it all boils down to one main factor, SAFETY. air brakes are much more reliable than hydraulic brakes in the event of a failure. for example the park brake system, for those not familiar with a spring brake chamber, the chamber has two seprate halves, one half contains the coil spring, that has enough force to litterally take off a mans head, the other half is just an empty chamber with a diaphram. when you mash the valve in the dash and release the brakes, air is applied to the spring side, the psi on the diapram overcomes the spring pressure and compresses it, therefor removing load from the slack adjuster and allowing the S-Cam to rotate back and the shoes to pull away from the drums. when the service brake (foot pedal) is applied, air is sent to the other half of the chamber using air against the diaphram to push the rod connected to the slack adjuster and apply the brakes. for the record, air brakes are MUCH more sensitive than hydraulic brakes. with hydraulic brakes, when you push the pedal you are using the force from your leg to push that fluid to the calipers with the help of a booster. with air brakes, when you push that pedal, you are simply opening a 2 stage valve and allowing a pressure that is already present to flow into the brake chambers. that is why they are so responsive, because youre opeing a valve with near 120 psi behind it. thats why when tractors bobtail they can lock up the brakes so easy, because they are so touchy.
in the event of a leak in the system, with hydraulics, your SOL, once your precious fluid is gone, you can kiss your braking ability by by. with air brakes, the compressor will continue to pump air as long as it needs untill the governor opens the popets an lets it free wheel. if you are hauling a load, and blow a brake like, say its hydraulic, there go your brakes, no chance of stoping, if its air, then the spring brake decompresses and the brakes are mechanically applied. that is the beauty of air brakes, with out air the vehicle can not move. there are some awesome valves out there for differnt applications too, for example, say you got a 53' with 80k on it, you loose tractor brakes, you cant stop that load with your foot pedal now, but you can pull the trailer hand valve and apply trailer brakes to come to a stop. you dont have this option in a strait truck, so if you loose primary air (air used to apply drive axle brakes and release park brakes(the park brake stays released due to air being traped by a check valve. )secondary air is for steer axle brakes and accesrories) youve lost all but your steer brakes, but when you apply the brake pedal, it uses the secondary air that you have, to activate a valve that releases air from park side of the chamber to produce a mechanical application at the drive axles. this can be repeated 8+ times before all air is exhausted and the brakes lock down.
as far as lines icing up, a good driver should drain his tanks daily, at the least his supply tank. if he fogets and gets some condesation build up, shame on him, dump a little alchohol and get back on the road. another practical benifit of air brakes, ABS, with hydraulic, you have to recover the fluid in an ABS event, with air brakes, the air is simply exhausted. hydraulic brakes have a bunch of componants to deal with to, fluid resevior, booster, master cylinders, slave cylinders, calipers, wheel cylinders, etc. air brakes dont have too much more than that, compressor, governor, airdryer(not neccesary), tanks (thats the bulkiest part of the system), chambers, slacks. and with the access of air, you can run air ride suspension, air horns, air ride cab, air ride seat, air lockers for drive axles, air locking hubs for 4x4, the list goes on. dont mean to rag on you, or chew your ear off, but i love air brakes, and am pretty pasionate about them. if it was my way, there wouldnt be anything but air brakes, i know a number of ole boys that would agree with that statement
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i like that ratio comparisson Nick, thanks for putting that up, i think that answers Carls question pretty well.
MY MY You must know how to type!!! LOL.There is an aftermarket kit for mounting an air compressor ontop the alternator, you put a differnt pully on the alt, an it runs a belt for the compressor. the industrial b-series run the cummins air compressor off the gear housing. where you would have your vaccum pump and ps pump on the dodge, you have the compressor and hydraulic pump.
Ah air brakes. Well SRath, i must disagree with you here. there are many more advantages to air brakes over hydraulic brakes, and dropping and hookings trailers is by far NOT the only reasons class 8 tractors have air brakes. if that were the case, why do strait trucks, rollbacks, coach buses, etc, use air brakes. it all boils down to one main factor, SAFETY. air brakes are much more reliable than hydraulic brakes in the event of a failure. for example the park brake system, for those not familiar with a spring brake chamber, the chamber has two seprate halves, one half contains the coil spring, that has enough force to litterally take off a mans head, the other half is just an empty chamber with a diaphram. when you mash the valve in the dash and release the brakes, air is applied to the spring side, the psi on the diapram overcomes the spring pressure and compresses it, therefor removing load from the slack adjuster and allowing the S-Cam to rotate back and the shoes to pull away from the drums. when the service brake (foot pedal) is applied, air is sent to the other half of the chamber using air against the diaphram to push the rod connected to the slack adjuster and apply the brakes. for the record, air brakes are MUCH more sensitive than hydraulic brakes. with hydraulic brakes, when you push the pedal you are using the force from your leg to push that fluid to the calipers with the help of a booster. with air brakes, when you push that pedal, you are simply opening a 2 stage valve and allowing a pressure that is already present to flow into the brake chambers. that is why they are so responsive, because youre opeing a valve with near 120 psi behind it. thats why when tractors bobtail they can lock up the brakes so easy, because they are so touchy.
in the event of a leak in the system, with hydraulics, your SOL, once your precious fluid is gone, you can kiss your braking ability by by. with air brakes, the compressor will continue to pump air as long as it needs untill the governor opens the popets an lets it free wheel. if you are hauling a load, and blow a brake like, say its hydraulic, there go your brakes, no chance of stoping, if its air, then the spring brake decompresses and the brakes are mechanically applied. that is the beauty of air brakes, with out air the vehicle can not move. there are some awesome valves out there for differnt applications too, for example, say you got a 53' with 80k on it, you loose tractor brakes, you cant stop that load with your foot pedal now, but you can pull the trailer hand valve and apply trailer brakes to come to a stop. you dont have this option in a strait truck, so if you loose primary air (air used to apply drive axle brakes and release park brakes(the park brake stays released due to air being traped by a check valve. )secondary air is for steer axle brakes and accesrories) youve lost all but your steer brakes, but when you apply the brake pedal, it uses the secondary air that you have, to activate a valve that releases air from park side of the chamber to produce a mechanical application at the drive axles. this can be repeated 8+ times before all air is exhausted and the brakes lock down.
as far as lines icing up, a good driver should drain his tanks daily, at the least his supply tank. if he fogets and gets some condesation build up, shame on him, dump a little alchohol and get back on the road. another practical benifit of air brakes, ABS, with hydraulic, you have to recover the fluid in an ABS event, with air brakes, the air is simply exhausted. hydraulic brakes have a bunch of componants to deal with to, fluid resevior, booster, master cylinders, slave cylinders, calipers, wheel cylinders, etc. air brakes dont have too much more than that, compressor, governor, airdryer(not neccesary), tanks (thats the bulkiest part of the system), chambers, slacks. and with the access of air, you can run air ride suspension, air horns, air ride cab, air ride seat, air lockers for drive axles, air locking hubs for 4x4, the list goes on. dont mean to rag on you, or chew your ear off, but i love air brakes, and am pretty pasionate about them. if it was my way, there wouldnt be anything but air brakes, i know a number of ole boys that would agree with that statement
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Back Issues
Subscription Status
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