2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Slow initial crank?

[CCiatteo]

Over the past two weeks I have noticed that initial cranking on startup is slow. At first I thought it was in my head, but it has gotten more noticeable. It is like a gas engine with too much intitial timing, slow on the first revolution, then picks up. Luckily my truck starts pretty quick with a little pedal. Anyway, when I first noticed it I looked at the battery cables and they looked good, cleaned them anyway. I redid the negative cable ends because the factory ends were no longer clamping the posts effectively. I switched over to military style clamps (another idea I picked up here) for the negative clamps. I thought this would do the trick, but only a slight improvement.



The starter in the truck is about a year old, from NAPA. The Red-top Optima's are about 18 months old and the alternator was rebuilt locally last summer. And all has been issue free until about 2 weeks ago.



Both batteries read 12. 72-12. 76 at rest, but still connected. I think that is good?

Voltage in the truck has never been an issue, since the rebuild, always above 14v. I checked at the batteries today and saw only 13. 8-13. 9 while idling all accessories off, I was expecting 14. 2 or more?



Tomorrow weather permitting I may drop the starter, check the positive cable and have a look inside. I remember my old starter was covered with oily residue inside from the blowdown tube. Maybe this starter is suffering from the same thing?



I don't think its a charging issue, but am not sure. Could the battery cables be corroded internally, offering up resistance?



My Haynes manual didn't offer up a whole bunch of info on trouble shooting.



Any ideas what should I look at next?

 

[ata]

Disconnect the battaries from each other over night and check the voltage in the morning. I'll bet you find the right battary is lower and going bad. Better yet put a load tester on them.

 

[GAmes]

Ditch that Haynes and get a FSM fom Genos. It won't fix your starter but you'll thank me later.



I think the NAPA chinese rebuild is failing. If it is lifetime warranty get a new one. If not, this is the best price I've found for a new (not rebuilt) Denso

Yard Truck & Diesel Parts Specialists. FLEETSOURCE: A complete transportation industry provider.

 

[CCiatteo]

Ditch that Haynes and get a FSM fom Genos. It won't fix your starter but you'll thank me later.



I think the NAPA chinese rebuild is failing. If it is lifetime warranty get a new one. If not, this is the best price I've found for a new (not rebuilt) Denso

Yard Truck & Diesel Parts Specialists. FLEETSOURCE: A complete transportation industry provider.

I ordered a FSM this week from Geno's and they are on backorder:-laf. I'll have to dig out my receipt and see what kind of warranty (if any is available on the starter. Thanks for the lead on the Denso unit.

 

[CCiatteo]

Disconnect the battaries from each other over night and check the voltage in the morning. I'll bet you find the right battary is lower and going bad. Better yet put a load tester on them.

I'll try that and report back my results... ... . I'm gonna be really #%#$#@ if one of my Optima's is toast.....

 

[Matt42]

I'll try that and report back my results... ... . I'm gonna be really #%#$#@ if one of my Optima's is toast.....

At 18 months old, your Optima batteries are right in the range for the red tops being made in Mexico, not in Colorado. Did the retailer remove the tiny stickers that say "Made In Mexico" leaving the embossing that says "Made in Aurora, Colorado USA"? I have given up on Optima batteries, sadly. My worst experience was with Mexican-made batteries built in November, 2007.



This lengthy thread from a Chrysler Town & Country forum explains all, including some responses from Optima, a division of Johnson Controls. Make your own conclusions.



OPTIMA Batteries - Alternatives, Whatdya think? - The Chrysler Minivan Fan Club Forums

 

[CCiatteo]

Ditch that Haynes and get a FSM fom Genos. It won't fix your starter but you'll thank me later.



I think the NAPA chinese rebuild is failing. If it is lifetime warranty get a new one. If not, this is the best price I've found for a new (not rebuilt) Denso

Yard Truck & Diesel Parts Specialists. FLEETSOURCE: A complete transportation industry provider.

I think it may be the starter... ... .

Disconnect the battaries from each other over night and check the voltage in the morning. I'll bet you find the right battary is lower and going bad. Better yet put a load tester on them.

Batteries disconnected all day today (too lazy to run out last night at 11pm) and they both read 12. 7 - 12. 8. I then removed both batteries and took them to the local Advance Auto Parts (only place open on Sunday) and had the batteries checked. Both came up good, putting out 795 and 785 CCA with a static charge of 12. 9. So I think at this point, the starter maybe the culprit?

At 18 months old, your Optima batteries are right in the range for the red tops being made in Mexico, not in Colorado. Did the retailer remove the tiny stickers that say "Made In Mexico" leaving the embossing that says "Made in Aurora, Colorado USA"? I have given up on Optima batteries, sadly. My worst experience was with Mexican-made batteries built in November, 2007.



This lengthy thread from a Chrysler Town & Country forum explains all, including some responses from Optima, a division of Johnson Controls. Make your own conclusions.



OPTIMA Batteries - Alternatives, Whatdya think? - The Chrysler Minivan Fan Club Forums

I checked the batteries and both still have the made in Colorado sticker. I bought them from my local speed shop (remember those?) and he always does me right. I even emailed him today and told him the problem, he was quick to call me and tell me to get them tested and he'd make good if there was a problem.



So tomorrow I'll drop the starter, take it to NAPA, get it load tested and see what kind of warranty I have on it. I found the receipt and I paid the extra $$$ for a NEW ($264), not rebuilt, not premium rebuilt, not super duper uber extra rebuilt; so I should have some sort of warranty on the thing as its only 15 months old.



I'll keep everyone posted and thanks for the ideas and things to check.

 

[Joe Mc]

If all else fails w/NAPA warranty on starter I'd go w/Larry B's STARTER SOLENOID REBUILD KIT ('89-'07)-Dodge Cummins Diesel Truck Accessories – Geno’s Garage

I had some issues back in 03 around 110k and after installing the Larry B's kit no problems to date and @185k well worth the $.

Hope NAPA stand by their "New" Starters. If not do the kit - you'll be happy for many years to come,

 

[GAmes]

If all else fails w/NAPA warranty on starter I'd go w/Larry B's STARTER SOLENOID REBUILD KIT ('89-'07)-Dodge Cummins Diesel Truck Accessories – Geno’s Garage



I had some issues back in 03 around 110k and after installing the Larry B's kit no problems to date and @185k well worth the $.



Hope NAPA stand by their "New" Starters. If not do the kit - you'll be happy for many years to come,

I would agree if his symptoms were the starter just clicking or taking multiple tries to spin. Larry Bs contacts won't fix bad bearings, brushes or armatures, all of which would cause his starter's slow spinning. I ran Larry B's contacts for over 600k miles on the original starter, then I had the same problem the OP had. It was just worn out, and a member who had the time to rebuild it took it off my hands. Eventually I'll order a set of Larry B contacts for the new Denso I bought.

 

[Joe Mc]

GAmes - good point. On mine it was cranking (hard to explain) like 1/2 speed for 1/2 a turn then correct speed the other half turn. It would start just not like the typical 2 - 3 turns and fire. The LBs cured it.

 

[CCiatteo]

Well the rain has subsided and I finally got a chance to drop the starter out and get it load tested. FAIL. The gear kicks out, but spins like an old man taking a peee. No gusto. In fact it was strapped down on the test bed, but barely created enough torque to cause it to jump. It was good to see (I'm not going insane yet), but kinda ticked me off at the same time (paid good money for good stuff and still got screwed). Now to find out if NAPA stands behind their gear.

Chris

 

[WestTN]

Unless you disconnect both batteries your comparison will be invalid. One battery will be resting quietly with no load while the other keeps the computer and various things alive.

 

[CCiatteo]

Unless you disconnect both batteries your comparison will be invalid. One battery will be resting quietly with no load while the other keeps the computer and various things alive.

What are we talking about? When I test the batteries the second time, they sat in the truck completely disconnected for 6-7 hours, then I pulled them and had them load tested seperately. They came up good on the load test. The starter on the otherhand, not so good.

 

[surfbeetle]

My starter did this a few months ago. I paid 110. 00 to have it rebuilt and all is well. Find a rebuild shop with good reputation and save yourself some $$.

 

[WilsonF]

I agree, have the OEM starter and alternator rebuilt until the shop says they can't do it anymore.

Floyd

 

[CCiatteo]

Well NAPA stood behind their product and got me another NEW starter, no charge. I guess its all I can ask for. Hopefully this one lasts longer that 15 months, but something in my gut tells me not to hold my breathe. I asked if this one was covered also and they said yes and went on to say that this doesn't usually happen on the NEW starters, much more common on the rebuilds.

Gotta go put a starter in... ... .

Well its in and the old "NEW" starter never turned the motor like this "NEW" one does. This thing sound like a top fuel dragster when its cranking over, very very quick. I think that old "NEW" starter was weak from day one.

Hats off to NAPA. They made good.

 

[Joe Mc]

Good deal - glad to hear things worked in your favor.

And, you're back on line.

 

[cap-n-cray]

Chris,



I just had the same thing happen to my truck. Slow starting then just clicks, luckily at home. I had just replace the contacts less then a 10k ago and the batteries were OK. I have the original OEM Denso starter. I decided to disassemble the starter and found the brushes were almost gone. I call LarryB's and ordered a new set. Just soldered in the new set and fixed the problem.



One thing Larry ask me was did I have a diesel leak. Yes I did, very small, but it drip on to the started and helped wear the brushes. I fix the leak too.



Cary

 

[panther23_1998]

mine is acting just like CCiatteo but i also think i am having a ground issue. any comments

 

[Bob Cochran]

There can be so many things. Poor ground, poor positive, marginal battery, starter motor getting weak to name a few. Pretty much start with the batteries and work the entire circuit.

I have found over the years batteries the first thing to check then grounds. It seem 75% or more of electrical problems are caused by poor grounds.