2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Never-ending rear drum brake saga...

[Rogan]

Rick, just found your thread. We can look at it this weekend. Did you get the new drum? A slightly out of round drum will cause more problems than you can ever imagine... .



Will

Welcome to the party, Will! :-laf



I'm supposed to pick one up today, along with a new 117" park brake cable, and (another) set of new shoes.

 

[jelag]

Rogan

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. .

When you drag them... your cooking out a little of the chemicals (grease) in the immediate surface of the brake shoe... . as they heat and cool the remaining chemicals migrate back to the surface of the shoe and cause the problem all over again... .

Yours is a good example of contamination that requires the replacement of the friction... You just can't melt it all away without destroying the resin that binds the friction together...

 

[Rogan]

Jim, I'm just gonna replace the drum and shoes this weekend, when I reinstall the new brake cable. I'll keep you all posted of the results.



Looks like my driveway is gonna be Dodge Ram Service Center this weekend, as Will is gonna be working on his whip, as well.

 

[Will24]

Your neighbors will learn to love me :-{}



-Will

Jim, I'm just gonna replace the drum and shoes this weekend, when I reinstall the new brake cable. I'll keep you all posted of the results.



Looks like my driveway is gonna be Dodge Ram Service Center this weekend, as Will is gonna be working on his whip, as well.

 

[Rogan]

Your neighbors will learn to love me :-{}



-Will

Will, you're the least of their worries. When the 5-0 know me by first name basis, due to all the times the neighbors have called in on me about working on cars... .



The conversation usually goes like:



"Hey, Rick. Whatcha workin on today?"

- "Aw, just [insert mod/repair here], since I had some free time. "

"Oh, cool. Man, how much power is this one making?"

- "LOL - this one's about 450-500hp (or whatever. )"

"Cool. Well, I had to make a cameo since someone called it in. Take care, have a good one [grins]. "



- "See ya next time, sir. [smiles]"

 

[Rogan]

Will, I thoroughly enjoyed you guys coming down for the weekend! It was a great time.
And. . no cops called all weekend! A bonus! LOL

Anyway, as for a brake update.
I replaced my R/R drum, and shoes, as well as installed the new e-brake cable, yesterday evening.

No more brake-grab, thusfar! YAY!

So now I need a new ebrake cable adjuster thingy, where the two rear cables hook together. . Mine, the threaded section and adjuster nut have become one, and there's no adjustment to be had now. And I need the adjuster about 3" longer than it is now. If the nut wasn't crusted, I'd prolly have enough adjustment in it to get it back together. However, that's not gonna happen with this one.

 

[Will24]

Rick, it was successful, Francis and I didn't die, lol! Thank you for your hospitality, lunch was great! Glad to hear your brakes are straightened out too. My harness is back on, there was a short pigtail missing that went to that rear sensor from the engine harness, I was able to make everything work. At this point the only problem I had was the trans control relay wouldn't click on, the PCM wasn't commanding it... So I just modified the harness so the relay just gets ignition power, the only code now is for the relay coil open, no big deal. I need to figure out TPS adjustment as I'm only seeing 2. 41v signal return at full throttle, lol, guess I need to look at that...



Rick, doesn't everyone need a Francis?







Will

Will, I thoroughly enjoyed you guys coming down for the weekend! It was a great time.

And. . no cops called all weekend! A bonus! LOL



Anyway, as for a brake update.

I replaced my R/R drum, and shoes, as well as installed the new e-brake cable, yesterday evening.



No more brake-grab, thusfar! YAY!



So now I need a new ebrake cable adjuster thingy, where the two rear cables hook together. . Mine, the threaded section and adjuster nut have become one, and there's no adjustment to be had now. And I need the adjuster about 3" longer than it is now. If the nut wasn't crusted, I'd prolly have enough adjustment in it to get it back together. However, that's not gonna happen with this one.

 

[Rogan]

Rick, it was successful, Francis and I didn't die, lol! Thank you for your hospitality, lunch was great! Glad to hear your brakes are straightened out too. My harness is back on, there was a short pigtail missing that went to that rear sensor from the engine harness, I was able to make everything work. At this point the only problem I had was the trans control relay wouldn't click on, the PCM wasn't commanding it... So I just modified the harness so the relay just gets ignition power, the only code now is for the relay coil open, no big deal. I need to figure out TPS adjustment as I'm only seeing 2. 41v signal return at full throttle, lol, guess I need to look at that...



Rick, doesn't everyone need a Francis?







Will

EVERYONE needs a Francis! I've never seen anyone work like that guy. I mean, 5-hrs deep and he'd already had your 5speed stuff out, and had the auto and tcase in... ona creeper, and hand tools. .





I think I found that short pigtail that was missing

 

[Rogan]

WEeks in, and the problem has not returned.



Thanks for everyone's guidance and help!



Will - you getting my messages?

 

[Texis]

I replaced my R/R drum

Personally I believe that was part of your problem. They warp frequently and often the new (cheaper brands) are warped right out of the box. A slight warp could have been causing the grab. New drums should be checked on a brake lath before installing.



I went through rear brake hell a while back, mine was hoping all over the road. I replace EVERYTHING in the brake system. My issue was warped, out-of-round wheels... and they were brand new, high dollar aluminum wheels! Not noticable while driving, but when I would hit the brakes... hang on! Took 6 weeks and 3 shops and many days on jack stands to figure it out.



Glad you got yours fixed, stuff like that can drive you nuts.

 

[Rogan]

Revisiting this issue. .

It started to vaguely rear it's head again, a few weeks ago. However, not as drastically.



Then, last weekend (7/11), I was hauling the trailer (~8500-9000lbs), and started down a slight grade (~1%). 5th gear, about 53-55mph. As I crested the hill, I'd let off the throttle. Beings it was only ~1500rpm, the Exh. Brake is kinda worthless, so I didn't turn it on.

As I started into the descent, the road curves around a right-hand bend. Once I cleared the bend, that's when I saw about 15-20 cars, stopped in the road; there was a wreck ahead of them. I was maybe 1/8mi from the last car stopped, and closing fast. I went into a panic stop, with the pedal depressed as hard as I could.

The truck started to slow down pretty good, for a couple seconds, then it seemed to lose braking strength. I grabbed a handful of trailer brakes, and pushed the pedal harder. That's when the truck's brakes decided to go on strike. . First the pedal limped to the floor, so I struck them again, only to find the pedal returned to it's up-position, but rock-hard.

My only option (now down to about 20-30mph) was to take evasive action to the right-side ditch, and through the other side, narrowly missing the car and a mailbox, squeaking between them. Me, my two kids, and the trailer ripped through the ditch and small field area like a roller-coaster. Around the cars, wreck, and all, we shot out the other side.



Not Fun at all.



I limped the truck about 1/2 mi up to a country store, and stopped to survey the damage. I saw none. . But I also had no brakes. I'm 20mi from home, and 10mi to my delivery, and my kids are clueless to WTF just happened. Which is probably a good thing.



I tested the brakes, again, the pedal seemed a little softer than before, and would stop the rolling truck, but with much more required effort. My option, at that point, was to continue to the delivery, since it was open road from here on out. I was hoping that the brakes were hot, and just faded. . the open road (45mph now) would give them time to cool down some.



They never got any better.



Once back home, I decided to bleed the brake fluid, then opted to just flush it all with new.



didn't make a difference.



From this thread, you all know that all the rear brakes components are new.

The truck always stopped really good, with little pedal pressure, especially empty and as my DD.



Now, it's a concentrated effort.



Do you guys think that maybe the new pads/shoes are glazed/dead? I mean, i was hard on the brakes, but they only lasted 3-400 feet if that, under hard braking. And I did break-in/seat them when they were installed. .



I haven't pulled drums or calipers yet, since this incident.

 

[Texis]

Sounds to me like a master cyl issue. I can't image all 4 giving up the ghost like that. But if you are not exerting any hyd pressure to the calipers and rear brake cylinders it would act as you described. I would think the front disc would have been able to at least "act" like they were trying to stop the truck (bitting, pulling, jerking, saking,etc) even if the rear brakes were useless. Dunno.

 

[Rogan]

Sounds to me like a master cyl issue. I can't image all 4 giving up the ghost like that. But if you are not exerting any hyd pressure to the calipers and rear brake cylinders it would act as you described. I would think the front disc would have been able to at least "act" like they were trying to stop the truck (bitting, pulling, jerking, saking,etc) even if the rear brakes were useless. Dunno.

It, at first, did make all attempts to stop us, then threw in the towel.



Also, I forgot to mention. . Under the hard braking panic-stop, I did hear/feel a "pop" or "bang" but I've no idea what it was or where it came from. Dunno if it was the trailer, the load-levelers, hitch, or what. .

Again, initial visual inspection was fine.

 

[fest3er]

Does the '96 have electronic RWAL brakes?

 

[Rogan]

I'm not really sure how it's ABS works, to be honest.

 

[Rogan]

any other ideas? I'd hate to have to take it to a brake specialist or something, if I can do it.

 

[fest3er]

I'm not really sure how it's ABS works, to be honest.

The reason I asked is that when the ABS kicks in, the pedal 'drops toward the floor' and most braking power is lost. At least that's the case on my '98. It sure sounds like that's what's happening.



This will happen when the CAB (Controller, Anti-lock Brake) detects, or thinks it detects, the rear wheels slowing fast enough to indicate that they are locking up.



Dave Fritz's Fritz's Dodge Ram Tech site indicates that 94+ model years have standard RWAL brakes. If your '96 does have this, check the rear diff sensor. IIRC, the CAB will stop detecting that hall-effect sensor when the voltage drops below 1-2 volts. If the sensor is crudded up, it could happen at, mmm, unsettling speeds. The CAB *thinks* the rear wheels locked up, so it engages. And you lose most of your braking.



Check the sensor in the diff housing. Check the harness. Check the connections to the CAB and to the ABS solenoids. There may be a fault anywhere from the rear sensor to the CAB itself.



The ABS misfunctioning is the only thing I can think of that can produce the symptoms you recently described. When it engages, you will hear/feel a pop- or clunk-like sound. It's 'softer' than the feel/sound of a tapered shaft (tie rod end, for instance) releasing when you are removing it: not the same, but sort-of similar. (I can't describe it any better. )



ABS is about the only thing left to check.

 

[Rogan]

Thanks, Neal. That's actually disturbing, how it responds to the sensor. . I'll check that out, today. At least, check out what I can, of it. I know the sensor is in the rear diff. , and my truck does have RWAL ABS. And I've been having some sparratic activity with the ABS light over the last 4-5 months. .

 

[fest3er]

Thanks, Neal. That's actually disturbing, how it responds to the sensor. . I'll check that out, today. At least, check out what I can, of it. I know the sensor is in the rear diff. , and my truck does have RWAL ABS. And I've been having some sparratic activity with the ABS light over the last 4-5 months. .

Back when I was playing with an Abbott speedo adjuster box, a connection wasn't quite perfect and the signal to the CAB would 'drop out' at about 6 MPH while I was coming to a stop. The CAB would dutifully activate ABS and I'd lose braking for the last 20 feet or so.



ABS is your braking problem. And that is a whole other ball of wax to diagnose and repair.

 

[SRath]

Rogan, Is your truck a 4x4? I ask because I have been told that the RWAL is disabled whenever the truck is in 4wd. If true, and if you have a 4x4, that might be one way to test if it is the RWAL system causing your problems.