How did water get in rear axle??? $1,100 ago

[zzman]

I sure would like to know how this works. Water mixed with oil in axle.



I had changed the axle oil around 9/08 using Lucas 85-140. I just like Lucas products. Had about 100k miles.

I had the front seal start leaking last summer. Repaired by local driveshaft shop. Had about 160k miles.

Last month the carrage bearing went out. I noticed it on the highway when doing a visual check of equipment. Found seal leaking and tried to check oil level in rear end. When the plug was removed (to replaced the oil that leaked out) I found it over filled and runny looking. Took to same driveshaft shop.

Along with the carrage bearing, 2 axle bearings were also in need of repair. The ring and pinion gears were worn in an unusal pattern.

I had all new bearings and the gears replaced.



When I asked how did the water get in there, thay said they see this alot with people that launch boats. I said I do not do that, I drive the highway alot. They said when the axle is hot and you drive through alot of water, the heat will cause water to be sucked passed the seals. Can that be right I don't know about that excuse, can anyone confirm that? I just know it was expensive to find this out.

I know I should change the fluid more often (I guess).

Anyone ever have this happen to them?



Today with 227K miles, it is still good.

Thanks

 

[Curious Dave]

I would check the diff. breather tube and fitting. Make sure they are clear. I could see some condensation building up in severe weather/use conditions. But enough to overfill? I doubt it.

Sucking water past seals... hmmmm... that sounds pretty creative. Again, that would mean that the diff. vent was blocked.

In my case the vent was blocked off and the continued use of - as well as heat and cool cycles - caused all of the seals to leak.

It does sound like you got into some water and that it ran into the diff. vent, maybe not all at once though. But enough water to stay in there and dilute the oil that much w/o realizing you were in water deep enough to do this?

The only thing I could think of is that your hose came off of the vent fitting and that excess water got in while driving down the highway during a heavy rain.

This is interesting.

 

[Slow Six]

I work for a guy who does not believe in routine maintenance. He asked me to change a u-joint yesterday because of a noise in the drive shaft on a F550 with a Dana. I checked u-joints and all seemed good. There was abnormal slack in the drive shaft and when I turned it to take out slack and than give it more twist there was a clunk in the rear end. That's the noise he heard before. I pulled the level plug which had a lot of metal filings stuck to it. I dipped the oil level and the oil looked bad. I than drained the diff and the oil looked more like dirty water and had no smell. I suggested that he should get the diff checked out as I feel there is a lot of slack in the bearings and possibly prevent further damage but he said to fill it up and they will run it. I wanted to check vent lines etc. as the water is finding a way in. A regular maintenance program would have detected this a lot sooner but I guess it is cheaper to run until it breaks and than ***** about the cost to repair not to mention downtime and lost work. Water and other contaminants do build up with time plus wear particles from gears and bearings. Regular oil changes remove these and provide for better lubrication.

 

[pullya]

I've used my truck to launch and retreive my boat for the last 6 years and have never had a problem with water in the diff. I service the diff every 30k and never had a problem. Granted, I'm not like some people who seem to think the only way to load a boat is by backing in up to the front tires. If either of your diff is under water when you launch or retreive your boat you need to adjust your trailer or have someone show you how to do it correctly. IMO

Jay

 

[zzman]

I went out tonight to check the vent hose, after I found it I saw it had a cap on the end??? I took the cap off (wrong or right??) Tomorrow I will check for blockage, too wet and dark now.

I thought I remember reading something about a shipping plug on something or another and maybe this was it or maybe not.

Thanks guys.

 

[cerberusiam]

I had changed the axle oil around 9/08 using Lucas 85-140. I just like Lucas products.

First thing you need to do is go out to your garage, find all the Lucas gear oil you have and POUR IT OUT, BURN IT, DO WHATEVER YOU CAN TO GET RID OF IT so you NEVER EVER make a MISTAKE of using it again!!!!



The Lucas gear oil is CRAP, GARBAGE, HARADOUS WATSE. It will destroy your differential, and probably contribute to global warming some way. #@$%!



That stuff destroyed a perfectly functioning Dana 70 in less than 10k miles with alot of the symptoms you descibe. Weird wear patterns on the ring gear, ring gear flaking, carrier bearings pitted and roughed, the crap came out of the diff like water and full of garbage. This was in southern Idaho where it rains 5" per year and the middle of summer where it rains almost none.



Water in the rear end, phooey!!! Lucas gear oil CRAP, yes!!!!



If water in the diffs was such a problem there would thousands of these trucks with the same problem. I run in rain and water on the roads a LOT and don't have that problem here. Besides, the seals are a double lip that that will stop dust and water from getting in and the pinion has a cover to deflect it. Its the gear oil, nothing else. :{

 

[GaryOwen]

I took the cap off (wrong or right??)

Wrong! The cap is a differential breather. It needs to go back on your differential. It is spring loaded to allow expanding air to escape and prevent water from getting in the differential. Many off roaders extend the breather to a higher location with rubber tubing if they are going into deep water.

 

[zzman]

WOW, I guess cerberusiam has an issue with Lucas products, thanks for your advice.



Gary I'll put the cap back on after checking for blockage, thanks.



I still can't figure how that much water got in, it seems more than just condensation.

Thanks guys

 

[Wingate]

They said when the axle is hot and you drive through alot of water, the heat will cause water to be sucked passed the seals. Can that be right I don't know about that excuse, can anyone confirm that? I just know it was expensive to find this out.

I know I should change the fluid more often (I guess).

Anyone ever have this happen to them?



Today with 227K miles, it is still good.

Thanks

That is absolutely possible... I've seen this same scenario take place with ATV's when riding in deep water. When forging water that comes up over half way on your wheels, you should keep a regular check on differential oils. . along with anything else that might go swimming. But first, did you happen to send the gear lube to a lab to confirm that it was water, or are we going off of what the repairing shop told you that it was?

One other thought... the lip seals on your pinion and axle tubes are designed to keep oil in. They have a dust seal to keep sand/gravel from getting up against the oil seal and damaging it, but they arent designed to hold back water. Basically, if the pressure of the water is greater that atmospheric pressure, (hitting a deep hole very fast, live stream with a decent current. . etc. . ) theres probably going to be some water getting by the seals.

On ATV's, The Hondas and Yamahas are the worst about it. . I have modified probalby 20-30 of them for people by removing the vent tube, tapping it for a grease fitting, then draining all the oil and filling it with wheel bearing grease. . Of course, that wont work in a high speed application. . dang-it!

 

[NIsaacs]

Do you have teenage boys? They like to go mud bogging when you are not watching then wash the truck before they bring it home. The swamp weeds wrapped around the drive shafts give them away tho



Nick

 

[mwilson]

A warm gear box placed into cool water will "Suck in it's breath" due to the sudden change in temperature. I know that it will happen with the vent tube if it goes under water, I suppose that the seals can do the same thing.



We had a severe flood in 1987 where I lived, roads were impassable, power was out. On the third day of this some of the neighbors were getting low on food so I had my Mack Tractor home at the time. I piled 4 people into the cab and sleeper and off to town we went.

I forded water up to the bottom of the frame rails and had to go very slowly so as not to cover the fuel tank vents with water, wished that I had pulled the fan belts but didn't have an issue.

If you ever do such a thing be very careful fording running water on a highway, it will try to draw you to the ditch in the direction of the flow. Something about fooling your eyes, almost like horizontal vertigo for lack of a better description..... I figured out after a minute that looking down on the left side rather than out over the hood seemed to be the way to go and you could catch a glimpse of the breakdown lane white line every once in a while.



Grocery store was open, handed you a flashlight when you went in the door to go with the grocery cart. :-laf



Kept the brakes lightly applied after coming through the water on the way home and dried all the wheel end hardware, brake shoes, etc. No problems with that stuff afterwords.



Anyways after the roads cleared I had a load waiting and would not go until I checked both rear ends and the transmission. Sure enough, both rears had a lot of water and were overfull but the transmission was OK. Vent for the trans was on top of the case so stayed out of the water. 10 gallons of fresh gear oil later I headed for Texas.

Proof to me how much water a rear end can suck in if immersed for any length of time.

 

[cerberusiam]

One other thought... the lip seals on your pinion and axle tubes are designed to keep oil in. They have a dust seal to keep sand/gravel from getting up against the oil seal and damaging it, but they arent designed to hold back water. Basically, if the pressure of the water is greater that atmospheric pressure, (hitting a deep hole very fast, live stream with a decent current. . etc. . ) theres probably going to be some water getting by the seals.

If the seal was directly exposed to the water pressure AND it didn't have the outer lip seal AND it was stationary for a long period of time that may happen. Not gonna happen driving thru puddles, not gonna happen even if the water is deep enough to go over the axle and you blow thru it. All the water pressure is displaced by the axle punching thru the water and it does not have time to hit the seals.



Really guys, dropping a hot gear box into water and using that as a definitve example that water gets by the seals? Comparing ATV's with a totally different sealing system? :-laf Ya gotta make some realistic comparisons here.



The axle seals are buried behind the drums and there is no possible way to put the force of water to them. The pinion seal has a cover that completely protects it from direct contact. The only pressure applied to the seals is indirect and very little if one is moving. The outer lip seal is both a dust and water seal. It is formed to seal tighter with more pressure. Again, if the correct seals are used and they are good no water is gonna get by them.



I spent many years fording rivers, creeks and standing water with all kinds of 4x4's. Seldom had water in the diff problems. It just doesn't happen. The only time we had problems was if the breather tube was cracked or tore off, or, we stuck one and had to let it sit for an exteneded time in water.



Condensation cannot make the amount needed to destroy the gears, just driving in rain cannot let in that amount of moisture. The OP doesn't launch a boat and unless he is a closet mud bogger that leaves the truck sitting overnight stuck somewhere, the only possible explanation is the gear oil.



While some of the Lucas products may be good, multiple examples of the gear oil being useless convinces me it ain't.

 

[mwilson]

In my circumstance I did not mean to imply that it came in any seal. I said that it could be possible. My river water came in the vent, no doubt about it. The diffs were warm, they were immersed for 15 minutes both going to town and then back and at a very, very low speed.



I think that can be duplicated launching boats very easily.



Driving in a rainstorm??? No way!!



Driving at speed??? No way, positive pressure exists. That is why a blocked vent will cause a blown wheel or pinion seal fairly quickly.



There are conditions where they will snarf water was my point.

 

[Curious Dave]

ZZman... Don't forget to check the fitting that goes into the diff. That was where mine was blocked. People tend to think that if the hose is clear the fitting is too. Not so.

 

[SShafranko]

I agree 100 percent with Cerberusium. Get rid of the Lucas it is junk. I have also seen instances where lUCAS WAS THE CULPRIT in ruining rear ends and transmissions. My friend has a powerstroke and was adding Lucas to his oil. After the third oil change with it he noticed that his oil was foamy. The Lucas was actually airating the oil creating air bubbles which is very bad for that truck since the injectors run on oil. His truck used to hesitate after 2000 rpm and we couldn't figure out why. Finally we flushed out all Lucas and installed straight oil and all is normal now.



There is a website dedicated to Lucas problems and true life examples of bad experiences people have had with it.



Sasha

 

[MVenditti]

I sure would like to know how this works. Water mixed with oil in axle.



I had changed the axle oil around 9/08 using Lucas 85-140. I just like Lucas products. Had about 100k miles.

I had the front seal start leaking last summer. Repaired by local driveshaft shop. Had about 160k miles.

Last month the carrage bearing went out. I noticed it on the highway when doing a visual check of equipment. Found seal leaking and tried to check oil level in rear end. When the plug was removed (to replaced the oil that leaked out) I found it over filled and runny looking. Took to same driveshaft shop.

Along with the carrage bearing, 2 axle bearings were also in need of repair. The ring and pinion gears were worn in an unusal pattern.

I had all new bearings and the gears replaced.



When I asked how did the water get in there, thay said they see this alot with people that launch boats. I said I do not do that, I drive the highway alot. They said when the axle is hot and you drive through alot of water, the heat will cause water to be sucked passed the seals. Can that be right I don't know about that excuse, can anyone confirm that? I just know it was expensive to find this out.

I know I should change the fluid more often (I guess).

Anyone ever have this happen to them?



Today with 227K miles, it is still good.

Thanks

If the vent is under water, water can get sucked in, and if the vent is clogged it can get sucked past the seals as the axle cools quick and creates a vacuum.

 

[GooseHunter]

First thing you need to do is go out to your garage, find all the Lucas gear oil you have and POUR IT OUT, BURN IT, DO WHATEVER YOU CAN TO GET RID OF IT so you NEVER EVER make a MISTAKE of using it again!!!!



The Lucas gear oil is CRAP, GARBAGE, HARADOUS WATSE. It will destroy your differential, and probably contribute to global warming some way. #@$%!



That stuff destroyed a perfectly functioning Dana 70 in less than 10k miles with alot of the symptoms you descibe. Weird wear patterns on the ring gear, ring gear flaking, carrier bearings pitted and roughed, the crap came out of the diff like water and full of garbage. This was in southern Idaho where it rains 5" per year and the middle of summer where it rains almost none.



Water in the rear end, phooey!!! Lucas gear oil CRAP, yes!!!!



If water in the diffs was such a problem there would thousands of these trucks with the same problem. I run in rain and water on the roads a LOT and don't have that problem here. Besides, the seals are a double lip that that will stop dust and water from getting in and the pinion has a cover to deflect it. Its the gear oil, nothing else. :{

Check out this website regarding Lucas Gear Oil:



What about Additives?

 

[Skydiver]

Just a tip.
Those who own a 4x4 that the 4x4 is seldom used might want to check your front axle fluid. Condensation will gather and contaminate every thing. Happened to my one owner 1986 Toyota 4x4. After 6 years and 70k miles I decided to change my axle fluids. The rear looked normal. The front was a brown mess. Never had it under water.

 

[ENafziger]

I agree 100 percent with Cerberusium. Get rid of the Lucas it is junk. I have also seen instances where lUCAS WAS THE CULPRIT in ruining rear ends and transmissions.

Not the point of this thread, but Lucas oil additive ruined my brand new factory crate engine in my Chevrolet truck. At 60k miles it was so worn out that it would go to 0 oil pressure at an idle.

Now, concerning the point of this thread, here's what Offroaders.com Source for 4x4 off-road trail reports, tech articles, 4x4 clubs, Product Reviews has to say:

Breathers
Axles, manual transmissions and transfercases typically have breathers. Breathers are designed to allow air pressure to equalize between the atmosphere and the inside of the mechanical component. During use, axles, transmissions and transfercases heat up. When a hot axle or gear box hits cold water it rapidly cools. This causes the air pressure inside the axle tube, differential housing, and gearboxes to reduce as the air molecules to contract. This in turn causes air to be drawn in via the diff breathers. If your breathers are below the water level or getting splashed, water will also be sucked into the breathers. Extending your low lying breathers, especially differential breathers, up higher into the chassis area using flexible tubing will allow a cooling component to draw dry air rather than water during a water crossing. This is a necessary modification for 4x4's that frequently encounter water crossings. Of course even with breather extensions, there is no guarantee that water will not enter your gearbox and differentials. Rapid temperature reduction, worn seals, loose bolts, all can be the cause of water getting into places it shouldn't be. As a preventative measure and the very least giving the axles, differentials, gearbox and transfercase time to cool down means there won't be as sudden a pressure drop in these mechanical components causing water to be sucked in.

Info taken from: 4x4 and a Water Crossing - Treading Water Offroad


--Eric

 

[steved]

Just a tip.

Those who own a 4x4 that the 4x4 is seldom used might want to check your front axle fluid. Condensation will gather and contaminate every thing. Happened to my one owner 1986 Toyota 4x4. After 6 years and 70k miles I decided to change my axle fluids. The rear looked normal. The front was a brown mess. Never had it under water.

Maybe in a truck equipped with locking hubs this could happen but, in these newer trucks with constantly spinning hardware, there is still enough heat generated to drive off minor amounts of moisture.





I agree with cerberusiam, I would only run Lucas in a dire emergency... other than that, it sits on the shelf and is used for lubing door hinges. I have several quarts of gear oil I bought when my pinion was leaking, just in case; and its still sitting on the shelf. All their oil additive amounts to is an oil thickener, it has no beneficial properties or additive package. Lucas is all marketing.