SOOT in oil!

[Tinman]

I've been watching the UOA on the 06 since I changed the cam at 39K. Wear metals were up for a bit as the cam worn in, but they are down to about normal. My last UOA with 63K on the clock and 8300 on the oil was good except for a slight amount of fuel in oil and a LOT of soot. So much Blackstone said they couldn't quantify it. Prior analysis showed insolubles very low. I find this odd... and concerning. I only use Fleetguard filters. I did replace the front crank seal during the oil change interval. (It was leaking some form the removal of the gear case during the cam install). But I wouldn't think that'd do anything. I have been runnig the Smarty on level 9 most of the time, both prior UOA and this one. What do you guys think?

 

[rscurtis]

Probably not out of line for a dirty running engine to start with, and I wouldn't think that your Smarty on level 9 helps the situation. Last several samples on my '03 showed soot at less that 1/10 of 1% with 350 hours on the oil.

 

[AH64ID]

I just put the same grind in my truck, I really hope its unrelated, or a botched sample as that was one of the reasons I went with a cam!

I only have 1500 miles on mine, and 1000 on the current oil so I wont be sampling for a while.

 

[TBartlett1]

There is a simple (crude) way to check for soot without sending a sample out.

Perform a blotter test as follows, take a white 3x5 card and do the following. Pull the dip stick and put 1 drop of oil on it then in another spot put 2 drops and so on, do this several times. So if you do 6 samples the last oil spot will have 6 drops.

Take the card and set it aside in the sun or a warm spot and let the oil bleed into the paper.

If there is a shiny spot in the middle of the sample there is unsuspended soot or contamination in the oil.

If you also send out oil samples you should be able to correlate the lab analyse to your blotter test.

Its simple, unscientific and free but it can be useful info.

 

[BGlidewell]

my oil is as black as the night. welcome to diesel land. soot does not effect the lubricity of the oil.

 

[AH64ID]

my oil is as black as the night. welcome to diesel land. soot does not effect the lubricity of the oil.

All 04. 5+ oil is black as soon as you change it, but starts with very low soot, even if you change the old oil at 5% the new oil is only 0. 004% soot and black.



Soot has huge effects on lubricity! Especially if you dont have a good soot fighting oil. Soot add to the viscosity.

 

[amsoilman]

I've been watching the UOA on the 06 since I changed the cam at 39K. Wear metals were up for a bit as the cam worn in, but they are down to about normal. My last UOA with 63K on the clock and 8300 on the oil was good except for a slight amount of fuel in oil and a LOT of soot. So much Blackstone said they couldn't quantify it. Prior analysis showed insolubles very low. I find this odd... and concerning. I only use Fleetguard filters. I did replace the front crank seal during the oil change interval. (It was leaking some form the removal of the gear case during the cam install). But I wouldn't think that'd do anything. I have been runnig the Smarty on level 9 most of the time, both prior UOA and this one. What do you guys think?

Here is a good article concerning SOOT in an engine that had failed:



Recently, an engine oil sample was tested to determine the root cause of a failure that resulted in an engine seizing. Initial observation of the oil sample showed it was thick and almost gel-like.

Common causes of engine oil thickening include highly oxidized oil, glycol contamination, thermal degradation and severe soot contamination. Initial analysis of the oil sample revealed that the oil was relatively new (additive elements were similar to the reference oil), it did not appear to be oxidized (reasonable acid number), and there was no sign of glycol contamination or wrong oil added (no unusual additive elements were present in the used oil that did not show up in the reference oil).

To sample for soot load, a pentane and toluene coagulated insolubles test (ASTM D893) was run on the sample and results indicated less than 1 percent solids in the sample. However, when a thermogravimetric analysis (TGA) test (ASTM D5967) was run, it reported about 15 percent soot, a huge discrepancy. Generally, results of these tests should correlate, but in this case they seemed to disagree with each other. To investigate further, two additional pentane insolubles tests by membrane filtration (ASTM D4055) were run.



The first test was conducted using a 0. 45 micron filter and the second with a 0. 30 micron filter. The 0. 45 micron filter yielded 2 percent soot while the 0. 30 micron filter found about 22 percent soot. It appeared that a high soot load caused the samples to become thick, but it was strange that the pentane insolubles test utilizing centrifugal solids separation did not report similar results. After more investigation, the reason why one test was more successful than the other was discovered.

To understand why the results of the pentane and toluene coagulated insolubles test did not coincide with TGA and membrane filtration tests, it is important to know how each test is performed and understand the underlying theories.



Understanding Each Test



Pentane and Toluene Coagulate Insolubles Test - ASTM D893

Basically, this test separates insolubles from the oil after it has been mixed with solvents. First, a pentane solvent is mixed in with the oil to separate solids and oxidation products from the oil by lowering the viscosity. The mixture is then centrifuged to separate the insoluble material and the insoluble material is measured to determine the percentage of insolubles present. The test is then repeated using toluene instead of pentane. The toluene dissolves organic oxides, but not soot. The mixture is centrifuged again and the insoluble material is weighed. The difference between the two weights (pentane and toluene) is the estimated soot content in the sample.

Soot Percent by Thermal Gravimetric Analysis (TGA) - ASTM D5967

The TGA method involves placing the sample in an oven, where it is weighed continuously as the temperature is increased at specific increments. An inert nitrogen purge gas is used over the sample to enable the oil to evaporate without other reactions (oxidation) taking place.

When the weight stabilizes and remains stable for a certain duration, this signifies that all the oil has evaporated and only insolubles remain. At this point, oxygen, rather than nitrogen, is introduced, which allows all the carbonaceous material (mainly soot) to combust and leaves the other metal insolubles in the sample. The soot percentage is calculated by measuring the difference between the weight of the sample before oxygen was introduced to the weight of the sample after it stabilized and all the soot is removed.

Pentane Insolubles by Membrane Filtration - ASTM D4055

This method is similar to ASTM D893 in that it also uses a pentane solvent. However, instead of centrifuging to separate the solid particles from the oil, the oil is passed through a submicron membrane. As the sample passes through the fine mesh patch, the insoluble material remains on the upstream surface of the patch while the remaining sample passes through. The insolubles are then dried and weighed, and the insolubles percentage is calculated.



Conclusion



Upon speaking to the laboratory personnel, it was discovered that when the pentane insolubles test was run, the additives (dispersants) in the oil appeared to have kept the soot suspended in the sample. When the sample was centrifuged, the soot was moved along the side of the test tube instead of being forced to the bottom with the other insolubles. Therefore, test results indicated a low insolubles reading. If the oil's additives had been depleted, the soot might not have remained suspended in the oil. This is further supported by the fact that the soot passed through a 0. 45 micron membrane, but failed to pass through a 0. 30 micron membrane. Dispersant additives keep soot from agglomerating.

Two lessons were learned from this discovery. First, had the TGA test or the ASTM D4055 pentane insolubles test using a membrane not also been conducted, the oil analysis results would have shown that soot was not above critical levels (usually about 2 percent or 3 percent). Although more expensive in certain cases, these tests are more appropriate for measuring soot than pentane and toluene insolubles by centrifuge.

The second lesson is that the customer should communicate with his/her laboratory and ask specific questions about the oil. The customer can oftentimes help when decisions are being made about what tests are most appropriate in a particular application. In addition, if questionable test results are obtained, the laboratory can serve as a good second opinion and troubleshooter.

 

[Tinman]

What concerns me is that this sample's soot is significantly different that previous samples. Previous insolubles (soot) were normal. Now all of a sudden a lot of soot. I haven't done anything to the engine since my last sample. I agree the Smarty is helping anything, but Ive been using it a long time with good samples. I have been running the mild TQ management a lot this interval, but tail pipe smoke is not an issue. I wonder if I didn't have a oil filter failure late in the interval. The other oddity is the normal iron of 43. With that amount soot you'd think the wear metals would be up b/o the abrasive effect of the soot.

 

[JJPage]

What do you guys think?





I think it is your Smarty's settings... SW9:-laf, and your other mods. (has your wife been driving your truck?) Check for boost leaks?



You are fueling so far past the engines original design, I have not seen a CR 5. 9 not smoke at will on SW9, or 8, or 7, or 6, or 5, or ... ...



Before I swapped my stock turbo to a SPS62, my oil stayed reasonably clean for quite some time, after the turbo "upgrade", it was black the same day. That little bit of lag, that everyone tends to ignore, and swears "it spools as fast as stock, or faster", it's the nature of the beast.



You asked, that's what I think, Jess

 

[BGlidewell]

All 04. 5+ oil is black as soon as you change it, but starts with very low soot, even if you change the old oil at 5% the new oil is only 0. 004% soot and black.



Soot has huge effects on lubricity! Especially if you dont have a good soot fighting oil. Soot add to the viscosity.

thanks for that.

 

[Tinman]

I tried to attach the report but couldn't get it to load without making it unreadable. But the insolubles have been . 3, . 4 , and SOOT, respectively. Again, I've used the Smarty at various SWs since about 15K, the only difference being slightly more aggressive TQ managment (mild) during this sample.

If the Smarty is doing this, then what would be a alternated power adder that won't kill the oil. ? I will say that I've always thought my truck smoked more with the smarty than what I read about other trucks. I have to use the pods to run is about 90% to keep it tolerable for me, but I don't like smoke either.

 

[AH64ID]

What TQ management were you running before?

I have seen the biggest difference in soot loading from timing on the Smarty Jr. TM4 makes soot like mad.

 

[Tinman]

I never liked the smoke of the Smarty. If the cam had not have cleaned it up a good bit, I'd have chunked the Smarty a while back. But with my mods the smokes OK. I always ran stock TQ until a about 6-8 months ago. I upgraded to the PODS to back off the power a tad of my chosen SW to help with smoke. It really made big difference. Running 90% cut down on the smoke quite a bit. I tried the TNT SW some and the low end torque of that SW is addicting, but I ended up going back to the Revo in order to use the stock injector timing. l missed the low grunt so I tried the mild TQ at 90% and it ran real well. That's what I've been using for about the last 8 months or 6000 miles or so. That may very well be it, in which case others on this board should be aware. Now,I m using SW7, stock TQ at 90 %

 

[HEMI®Dart]

This is comparing apples to oranges....

On my '94 this is the oil @ 1000K. I run an Amsoil By-Pass filter. I Let oil drain for 24-36-48 hours.

 

[Tinman]

Wow! That's clean oil.

 

[amsoilman]

Here is an oil report I had in my photobucket account. I have a newer one, but it is not down loaded yet.



#ad

 

[cerberusiam]

On my '94 this is the oil @ 1000K. I run an Amsoil By-Pass filter. I Let oil drain for 24-36-48 hours.

Sure it is, NOT! :-laf:-laf

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Sure it is, NOT! :-laf:-laf

It sure as heck it. God's honest truth. I swear!

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Amsoilman, My oil analysis comes back w/ high copper too. Twice. Same explanation as your's " Copper is most likely leaching into the oil via the oil cooler core tubing" How can this be? The tubing is breaking down from the inside???

 

[cerberusiam]

It sure as heck it. God's honest truth. I swear!

Ummmm... ... maybe if your towed instead of drove it. Otherwise about as believable as the 38 mpg claims.