Dodge-Ford-GM

[Wingate]

yea... well... I heard that Ford owns CUMMINGS!!!!!... haahahahaha... jk guys...

 

[RonD]

First, I don't understand why one would have over 28,000 pounds with 343 gears, its a truck, you should have a minimum of 373, or 410 would be better, second the throttle advances fuel flow, when I climb a long say 7% grade in 3rd gear, I have a 48RE at about 52mph, no problem, EGT's are at about 1250-1300, if I give it more fuel they climb, so what your saying is go into the next gear down, being 2nd and rev it up to do what?, I like 52 mph on long grades, my rig is 22,500 pounds, not light, and I have 373 gears, 410 would have been better, but I have to agree with Harvey on this one , I don't have a 1,000,000 tow miles, but enough I think, and yes you do have a trans problem, find a good dealer and give them a ride with your rig connected.

 

[Powder Extreme]

Ron what I am saying is the motor is better off running in the upper rpm range than the lower range. If you are pulling a hill really working it at a low rpm say 15 - 1600 absolutely you should downshift and spin the motor up higher. If you're already spinning 2100 or more, no problem. Lugging a motor is hard on it. You start to get fuel washing by the rings elevated temperatures and so on. 3. 42 gears in 2nd or 3rd is essentially the same final drive as 4. 10 in 4th or 5th. The overall final drive is what matters. As long as you keep the motor rpm in its sweet spot, whatever combination of gears you use to get there doesn't matter.

One other thing you need to remember is turbo boost pressure. At a lower rpm your truck will build less boost. The extra air from higher turbo boost helps keep the egt lower as well as more efficiently burn the extra fuel. Think back to the pre emission trucks and how they would smoke before the turbo spooled. Not enough air.

4. 10s will accelerate better, I wont argue that, but at a given final drive for a given engine rpm it doesn't matter.

Actually, I could tell you a story about the trucking industry that did a test with some custom trucks running tall rear ends and non overdrive trannys. You guys would be very shocked at the results. =)

 

[HBarlow]

You're trying awfully hard to convince somebody, perhaps yourself, but your statement that I am wrong and your opinion is fact is nothing more than your opinion . . . which is not shared by me. I'm not impressed and don't believe you no matter how many times you repeat the same opinions and declare them to be fact.

 

[RVTRKN]

The one factor, with the taller gear is that the pressure on the pinion/ring gear is greater with a 3:42 especially towing heavy, and is a bad choice no mater what the final drive ratio is. It also puts your CTD in the "sweet spot" at the proper RPM and a better cruising speed with a 4:10 when towing heavy. Note that I have the 3:73 and regret it, when towing heavy at the slower speeds they in force here in California. 55 MPH sucks here, for truck/auto's with trailer.

 

[HBarlow]

Yep, I've had a similar experience. My first CTD Ram had 3. 54 gears. It was a pain in CA, IL, and other places where the speed limit is 55mph. Sixth gear was too high, I had to run at least 62 mph to remain in the torque band or shift down and run for hours up and down I-5, I-15, or I-10 in fifth.

 

[NIsaacs]

Overall final drive ratio does count. With 4. 10's and 6spd with two overdrives you have good towing gears and go home gears. A 6spd direct transmission and 2. 90's is even better.



Harvey, 55 mph loaded in 5th should have been a good choice for the states with slow speed limits. Since mostly the return trip was empty, 6th was now perfect. I don't think you would have liked 4. 10's for this reason with your 01'. One overdrive with 4. 10's, empty, out west, just sucks



Nick

 

[HBarlow]

You are right about running in fifth gear when speed limits were low. I did it but I always wanted to shift up to let the engine speed and noise level drop.

Our trucks always require compromise on gearing because we can't option a ten speed like big trucks. I liked the 3. 54 gearing when I was pulling a light travel trailer but didn't like it pulling a heavy fifth wheel. When I bought the fifth wheel I wished I had ordered the 4. 10 gears.

The newer trucks with six speed automatics make the choices easier. My C&C has the load starting ability and backing ability of 4. 10 gears and low geared first and reverse but double overdrive gives me low rpm highway cruise as well. Even fifth gear range, first overdrive works great for towing a heavy trailer.

 

[Powder Extreme]

Harvey, I could care less if you believe me. You keep on driving however you wish, its your truck. However if anybody else who isn't stubborn and pigheaded would like to talk to a knowlegeable diesel mechanic and verify my statements they will find that I am correct. Then in the future that knowledge can be applied.



Why don't you go ask your anonymous Cummins buddy if lugging the motor is bad for it?



For somebody who thinks he knows everything, you sure are misinformed. A truly intelligent person ALWAYS keeps an open mind.

 

[RVTRKN]

Harvey, I could care less if you believe me. You keep on driving however you wish, its your truck. However if anybody else who isn't stubborn and pigheaded would like to talk to a knowlegeable diesel mechanic and verify my statements they will find that I am correct. Then in the future that knowledge can be applied.



Why don't you go ask your anonymous Cummins buddy if lugging the motor is bad for it?



For somebody who thinks he knows everything, you sure are misinformed. A truly intelligent person ALWAYS keeps an open mind.

know what you mean .

 

[HBarlow]

Thanks, I will certainly continue to believe and do as I choose while ignoring your opinions. Since you mentioned it, I don't get my information from mechanics.

I"m curious why someone who is a self-declared expert and who pontificates about "lugging" an engine would make such an uninformed decision as to order a new Ram with a 3. 42 differential and then whine because his automatic is not downshifting to avoid lugging.

 

[67guzzler]

Really guys. This has deteriorated to the lowest level.

Harvey -- he's told you over and over that although he has the 3. 42, the problem he's having is more related to the transmission down-shifting than lugging. If you floor it, it should kick down to whatever gear gets you to around 2300 to 2700 rpm's. Period. If you're in 6th (regardless of diff ratio) and 4th gets you between 2300 and 2700, it should kick down there... In the old days before computer controlled transmissions we called that a "kick down" gear and if the linkage wasn't adjusted or the kick down switch wasn't working, you'd just stay in the gear you were in. You keep harping on the 3. 42 and it's a red-herring -- a spurious tangent that gets the true issue hidden -- and that is why his transmission isn't kicking down when put under load and the pedal is depressed fully or close to fully.

His words:

There is something wrong with my transmission, I hitched up a 2000lb (yes, 1 ton) trailer to a brand new truck on the lot and pulled the exact same hill I had just came over with my truck. Cruise set @ 75mph, 6% grade, my truck would drop to about 71mph before it downshifted (yes, it couldn't hold 75mph) If I stepped on the throttle myself, flooring it, the transmission would not downshift. New truck, cruise set at 75mph, didn't lose speed, didn't need to downshift, HOWEVER when I floored it myself, the transmission immediately downshifted. Salesman was with me and witnessed this.

Powder -- You're dealing with someone who enjoys the banter and the conflict. If you do too, then keep going. But it's not going to ever come to pass that anything you say is right. There's never going to be a good natured "agreement to disagree" or anything of the sort.

I honestly believe that Powder's issues aren't related to the 3. 42 rear regardless of whether it's less than ideal for towing heavy loads -- which he says he is not necessarily. He was able to induce the problem with a 2,000 lb load if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Powder Extreme]

Overall final drive ratio does count. With 4. 10's and 6spd with two overdrives you have good towing gears and go home gears. A 6spd direct transmission and 2. 90's is even better.



Nick

Somebody who understands gear ratios! Oo. :-laf



I would much rather run my transmission in direct and have a tall rear end, then run the transmission in double over and have a low rear end. I'm pretty sure the ring and pinion are stronger than the automatic transmission.

 

[Powder Extreme]

Really guys. This has deteriorated to the lowest level.



Harvey -- he's told you over and over that although he has the 3. 42, the problem he's having is more related to the transmission down-shifting than lugging. If you floor it, it should kick down to whatever gear gets you to around 2300 to 2700 rpm's. Period. If you're in 6th (regardless of diff ratio) and 4th gets you between 2300 and 2700, it should kick down there... In the old days before computer controlled transmissions we called that a "kick down" gear and if the linkage wasn't adjusted or the kick down switch wasn't working, you'd just stay in the gear you were in. You keep harping on the 3. 42 and it's a red-herring -- a spurious tangent that gets the true issue hidden -- and that is why his transmission isn't kicking down when put under load and the pedal is depressed fully or close to fully.



His words:







Powder -- You're dealing with someone who enjoys the banter and the conflict. If you do too, then keep going. But it's not going to ever come to pass that anything you say is right. There's never going to be a good natured "agreement to disagree" or anything of the sort.



I honestly believe that Powder's issues aren't related to the 3. 42 rear regardless of whether it's less than ideal for towing heavy loads -- which he says he is not necessarily. He was able to induce the problem with a 2,000 lb load if I'm not mistaken.

Jay, thank you for that.



And yes, my conversation with Harvey is over. If anybody else is interested I'd be happy to help them out. My info isn't just my opinion, it's information I've collected over the years from reading numerous tech articles, talking to several mechanics, and wisdom from tons of guys who modify trucks for a living.



Cheers! =)

 

[SOLER]

OMGosh, this has been a painful read... But let's get to the initial issue. First of all, if your engine won't hold speed in a certain gear, you're lugging it. Now, whether or not it's doing damage to the engine is a separate argument.



Second, if your truck won't hold speed with 2k lbs, and won't downshift, it sounds like there are two problems there. Something is wrong with power output, and then it won't downshift. Although, now that I think of it, it's prolly just one electrical problem.



Third, as far as EGT: high rpms=low egt, low gear=high egts. That's all there is to it. As far as needing an egt guage, that's a personal choice. But I will say that I put them on my truck no matter what due to what I discovered on my 2001. 5 truck. I put the guage on it before I did any other mod. Glad I did. Typically, 1300-1350 degrees (read from the exhaust manifold), is about as hot as you want. Things will start glowing/melting. You can go higher for short periods, bla bla bla. I don't want to get into that. But thats what I understand, and when I put the guage on my truck, I could get higher than that on a short hill empty. Yes, empty, the temps would climb above 1300 on a short hill. So, I changed the air filter and put a 4" exhaust on it from the turbo back. Temps went down, and I didn't have to get out of the throttle as soon. So, a stock truck could get hot and the driver doesn't even know it. Therefore, I encourage installing a pyro guage to monitor it and avoid something costly. IMHO, these guages should be standard equipment on our trucks.



SOLER

 

[J.BURCHFIELD]

I fully understand the desire for more power and torque. Altho my desire is strong what I already have is sufficient for me. There is a difference between desire and actual need. I am happy with my good old 1998 12v. When I can go up steep hills (towing) at the speed limit I am satisfied that I am not creating a highway hazard. If I hit the lottery for a few million there just AIN'T no telling what I might buy. It sure won't be anything made by Government Motors.

 

[HBarlow]

Jay, thank you for that.

And yes, my conversation with Harvey is over. If anybody else is interested I'd be happy to help them out. My info isn't just my opinion, it's information I've collected over the years from reading numerous tech articles, talking to several mechanics, and wisdom from tons of guys who modify trucks for a living.

Cheers! =)

I'm grateful your conversation with me is over. I grow tired of your name calling to back up your sometimes silly opinons.

I guess those of us who own and use Dodge Rams with 4. 10 gears should be thankful that Dodge Ram and Cummins engineers haven't read the same tech articles and talked to the same mechanics you have and don't understand gear ratios as you do.

My Ram C&C w/4. 10 gears does a nice job of towing my 14,000 lb. fifth wheel. If I'm on an interstate highway and kick the speed up to 65 mph or so it will pull in 6th/2nd OD nicely and not shift down on slight grades.

If running on secondary two lane highways at 60 or 62 mph with rolling hills it will occasionally downshift to 5th/1st OD or even 4th/Direct if necessary. The automatic tranmission programming downshifts easily if the cruise control or my right foot calls for more power.

My guess is the ECM/PCM programming with an automatic transmission and 3. 42 gears is set to resist downshifts in order to stay in top gear and avoid constant downshifting. Programmers have to make some assumptions to set up the programming and one of the assumptions might be that those who buy 3. 42 gear want low rpm quiet operation and fuel economy, not towing power. I don't know that is the case but could be the reasoning.

A quick review shows me that for 2011 models, the maximum trailer towing weight for a 3. 42 geared truck is 17,000 lbs. The max tow weight for a 3500 with 4. 10 gears is 24,500 lbs.

I suppose those Dodge and Cummins engineers just don't understand gear ratios as some of our TDR members do. If they were better informed they would know that the best choice would be for the top transmission ratio to be direct and the differential ratio to be 3. 25 or and even lower numerical number and a truck with 3. 42 gears or even taller could tow a lot more than the 4. 10 geared trucks. I wonder why they set the tow limits like that? Suppose they are ignorant? Just wondering.

 

[SOLER]

I suppose those Dodge and Cummins engineers just don't understand gear ratios as some of our TDR members do. If they were better informed they would know that the best choice would be for the top transmission ratio to be direct and the differential ratio to be 3. 25 or and even lower numerical number and a truck with 3. 42 gears or even taller could tow a lot more than the 4. 10 geared trucks. I wonder why they set the tow limits like that? Suppose they are ignorant? Just wondering.

Easy Harvey :-{} 4. 10 gears are better for towing. We know that. But you can tow with 3. 42 gears without too much problem. Apples to apples, if I tow 10,000 lbs, either truck is going to do it. The 4. 10 is going to stay in higher gear longer at a certain speed, at a certain RPM. The 3. 42 (and this is news to me, I thought the only ratios for the 3500's were 3. 73 and 4. 10... I have the 3. 73) is going to have to downshift earlier. It's all about the sweet spot in the power band. One great thing about our trucks is the relatively flat power band. Max torque is around 1700-1900 or so, but you still have a high percentage of max torque at 1200 RPM, and even a little higher than 1900 before it drops off. But then, if the motor is turning fast, you are then in the max horsepower range, and the truck will keep going. I completely understand the different ratios, and I got the 3. 73 because it's the trade-off for me. If I tow heavy, I have no room to complain that the truck wants to shift down, because it needs to stay in the sweet spot. I haven't towed anything real heavy with my new truck yet, and it being a 6 speed, it's going to do different than the old 4 speeds. My last two trucks were 6 speed manuals with 3. 55 (the 2001) and 3. 73 (the 2004) gears. If I had a 4. 10 rear end, I think it would have been happier in 6th gear more often. I understood this, as it was the tradeoff for me for a daily driver vs towing (it was a daily driver more than a tow vehicle). And when towing, I always wished I had a gear between 5th (direct) and 6th (overdrive). I was tempted in putting in a gearvenders unit. The final drive of my transmission and a 4. 10 rear end would have put me some where in between my two high gears. Now, the point I want to make is this, regardless of the rear end, regardless, regardless, regardless, it all comes down to RPMs vs road speed. That's it. The ratings, as I understand how they come up with them and why, are for transmission longevity for the most part. Your transmission is going to be shifting more often if you have higher gears (lots of downshifting/upshifting= shorter transmission life and/or closer service intervals). My 3. 73 truck can tow 20k just like a 4. 10 can, but I would have to use a lower gear, and drive at a slightly slower speed. The initial point here was, Powder Extreme was complaining that his truck wouldn't shift down and maintain speed like it should. The computer doesn't necessarily know what rear end ratio it has (well, it prolly is programmed in there) but it's mainly concerned with rpm vs load vs speed.



So PowdEx, you do have a problem there. Sorry you can't get the dealer to listen to you. You read my thread about my shifter problem... my dealer wouldn't listen to me, either. And I think you'll agree that a 4. 10 is a better towing gear than the 3. 42 or 3. 73 (You might be confusing that 3. 42 gear with a Chivy gear, I think that's what they use, at least on their 1500's), and I think you'll accept the fact that your truck is not going to stay in 6th gear as long as one would with a 4. 10 rear. And that brings us back to your original problem yet again... your truck won't hold speed AND won't downshift to do so. Either a power problem or an electrical glitch in the transmission programming. See if they'll "flash" it or something.



Good luck!



SOLER

 

[Powder Extreme]

Sigh... harvey, that post was made five months ago. Did you really feel it was necessary to sling some more insults and tell us how you know more than everybody including the Dodge engineers?

Wait... Scratch that... Silly question.