Question, 2010 power

[blmyachtsales]

Noticed the 010 with G56 has terrible throttle response and is pretty much dead on power bellow 1800, I put my foot to the floor from 1500-1800 and she takes her sweet time till about 2200?? I know the 06 (Auto) felt this way till I became acustom to it (my first truck without a throtle cabele) and the edge helped a great deal. Does the 010 have an even greater delay for some reason?



As a side note, by the seat of the pants, my mildly hopped up 1996 12 valver with NV 4500 felt much faster and more powerfull than both the 06 and 010.

 

[dodgesst]

you know i agree with you 100%. when i ordered my truck (2011) i thought get the tall gears, you got a 6 speed you will be good. WOW i'm in 6 gear at 45 mph, thats alot of in town shifting. i don't use first, i don't even feel like i'm even moving until third starts to wind out

 

[HBarlow]

What differential gearing are each of you describing?

With no ratios mentioned I would guess blmyachtsales is describing a truck with 3. 73 gears and dodgesst is describing one with 4. 10 gears.

 

[dodgesst]

no sir got the 373, mines' not the automatic

 

[blmyachtsales]

I've got the 3:42's, in high gear rpm is about the same as my 06 auto 1800 at 65mph whcich I am happy with. My original comment about power is directed more at the trucks overall feal. I always thought a manual would feel quicker and expected the truck to move with autority when you hit the go pedal.



Hi there Hbarlow, i pm'ed you a few weeks back re the st vs slt. As you can see I went with the ST and added the goodies that I wanted, very happy with that decision as it saved me thousands. Hopefully I get used to the truck.

 

[AH64ID]

Its all part of the programming employed on the HPCR. They make so much tq that they have to be detuned until a certain speed is obtained.

 

[HBarlow]

Bad guessing on gearing on my part, I guess.

Adam, I remember exchanging PMs with you. I'm glad to hear you like your truck.

I was not aware that the ECM was managing torque on some of the new ISB6. 7 engines. Perhaps the dual mass flywheel or G-56 requires it.

I don't think my C&C ECM is using any torque management programming. If I put my foot moderately into mine when a light turrns green, even though is weighs 10,000 lbs. , my truck with Aisin six speed automatic easily leaves all the traffic behind. I do it sometimes when I am in the correct lane and see that some ahole next to me is planning to jump the light to jump ahead of me just in time to slow down and slow me down so he or she can turn in front of me. It works every time. I have no complaints at all about the acceleration capability of my heavy cab and chassis.

Torque management sounds like another reason I'm glad I didn't decide to order the G-56 manual version.

 

[dodgesst]

Harvey, my truck will not get of it own way from a stop. I'm not complaining, but I would have ordered the 343 gears if I had known better. Sounds like your C&C would leave mine in the dust. But I didn't buy it for speed, I have other rides for that. All in all I'm very happy with my truck

 

[domehead]

I have the 3. 73 gears and the six speed and it feels fine yes it's alot of shifting in town. But I normal run the highway.



If you need to haul large load you will be very thankful for the low gears.

 

[AH64ID]

Bad guessing on gearing on my part, I guess.

Adam, I remember exchanging PMs with you. I'm glad to hear you like your truck.

I was not aware that the ECM was managing torque on some of the new ISB6. 7 engines. Perhaps the dual mass flywheel or G-56 requires it.

I don't think my C&C ECM is using any torque management programming. If I put my foot moderately into mine when a light turrns green, even though is weighs 10,000 lbs. , my truck with Aisin six speed automatic easily leaves all the traffic behind. I do it sometimes when I am in the correct lane and see that some ahole next to me is planning to jump the light to jump ahead of me just in time to slow down and slow me down so he or she can turn in front of me. It works every time. I have no complaints at all about the acceleration capability of my heavy cab and chassis.

Torque management sounds like another reason I'm glad I didn't decide to order the G-56 manual version.

As far as I know all HPCR's have some sort of tq management. Its the main reason tuners like Smarty make the truck a lot more drivable and feel stronger on the bottom end. The drive train just can't handle 610-650 ft/lbs of tq multiplied thru the lower gears. The AAM 11. 5" rear axle has an input max of 480 ft lbs for shock loading, so the ECM keeps tq below that number until your speed is up (don't recall the exact speed but AAM told me approx 3rd gear on auto's).

 

[HBarlow]

I am a little skeptical about that. I have never read or heard that from any other sources.

It might be harder to determine from the driver's seat with my current truck because it is much heavier and the engine is rated at 305hp/610 tq.

My previous '06, rated 350/650 with a built DTT 48RE would break the rear tires loose under full throttle in first gear and spin them hard again on the 1 to 2 shift.

"Shock loading" would be an issue when the driver sidesteps the clutch in a lower gear from a standstill but not much when an automatic launches.

 

[AH64ID]

I am a little skeptical about that. I have never read or heard that from any other sources.

It might be harder to determine from the driver's seat with my current truck because it is much heavier and the engine is rated at 305hp/610 tq.

My previous '06, rated 350/650 with a built DTT 48RE would break the rear tires loose under full throttle in first gear and spin them hard again on the 1 to 2 shift.

"Shock loading" would be an issue when the driver sidesteps the clutch in a lower gear from a standstill but not much when an automatic launches.

I got the info direct from AAM, input tq is not to exceed 480 ft/lbs on the 11. 5" until a certain speed it obtained.

What power adder was on your 06, that could be enough. . But either way the 480 ft/lb tq limit with a built trans should have zero problems lighting the tires up, thats a LOT of power.

The stock 04. 5-07 was rated 325/610, with 610 being at 1600 rpms, there was at least 400 ft/lbs at 1,000 rpms, and 555 ft/lbs from 1400-2900, so at speeds right off idle there probably isn't much tq management. Most power adders will reduce tq management so you can use that rating at lower speeds.

You also need to consider the tq multiplication, lets take the 400 ft/lbs at 1,000 rpms in 1st gear and 3. 73's, thats over 3600 ft/lbs being delivered to the wheels. . I sure hope that can break the tires loose.

 

[dodgesst]

Dome I agree with on the heavy load and 373 gears. But I don't tow heavy often. 25 ft gooseneck with what every my buddies ( at the time) need moved. Most of the time it's empty. I bought more truck than I needed so I would never need more truck

 

[HBarlow]

Yeah, you're right. The engines weren't rated 350/650 until the ISB6. 7 pickup version. My '06 was OEM original with 4. 10 gears.

I think I'll send a message to Cummins and inquire about torque management. My memory is fuzzy but it seems that somewhere I remember reading or hearing from an authoritive source that the Cummins in the Dodge platform was not torque managed. The writer/speaker was comparing the Dodge-Cummns to the Furd and or Govt. Motors trucks. It could have come from Joe Donnelly or another knowledgeable speaker at May Madness '07.

 

[AH64ID]

I would be quite surprised if it didn't require tq management, especially considering the Smarty has 4 different levels to choose from and Stock is the weakest.

 

[gtoli]

If I put my foot moderately into mine when a light turrns green, even though is weighs 10,000 lbs. , my truck with Aisin six speed automatic easily leaves all the traffic behind. I do it sometimes when I am in the correct lane and see that some ahole next to me is planning to jump the light to jump ahead of me just in time to slow down and slow me down so he or she can turn in front of me. It works every time. I have no complaints at all about the acceleration capability of my heavy cab and chassis.



Torque management sounds like another reason I'm glad I didn't decide to order the G-56 manual version.

I agree. My 2010 w/auto trans will launch hard and has no problem breaking the tires loose if I'm not paying attention. As far as acceleration, my 3500 will outrun my daily driver (2006 Ford Crown Vic PI), up to alittle over highway speed of course.

 

[RVTRKN]

Noticed the 010 with G56 has terrible throttle response and is pretty much dead on power bellow 1800, I put my foot to the floor from 1500-1800 and she takes her sweet time till about 2200?? I know the 06 (Auto) felt this way till I became acustom to it (my first truck without a throtle cabele) and the edge helped a great deal. Does the 010 have an even greater delay for some reason?



As a side note, by the seat of the pants, my mildly hopped up 1996 12 valver with NV 4500 felt much faster and more powerfull than both the 06 and 010.

Its the latest flash or if new, its programed in the ECM. It is DPF/smog related, and what it does it prevents heavy acceleration that produces smoke/soot that can plug the DPF when at the lower RPM's. My 07 C&C was just slightly slower than my 04. 5 2500, until I had it flashed in early 09. Its even worse when in regen, and will take off like a bat out of hell past 2K RPM. I have to drive it slow during the regen process when driving in the city. I have learned to live with it, and still love my C&C especially when towing heavy, but I wished I never allowed the latest flash and would not recommend it with the G56 for those who have not done it yet on the early 6. 7's with the G56. You have to keep in mind that the 6. 7 still smokes , but you can't see it due to the DPF.

 

[HBarlow]

I would be quite surprised if it didn't require tq management, especially considering the Smarty has 4 different levels to choose from and Stock is the weakest.

I called the Cummins MREP this morning and talked to a young man in customer service. He seemed knowledgeable and had a good attitude but dodged (no pun intended) the question. He told me that the ECM for the Cummins engines intended for the Dodge platform uses different programming so he didn't have access to that info. Of course we know that is true but it is Cummins engineers that develop the programming and download it into the ECM and bolt the ECM onto the Cummins engine before it leaves the MREP at Columbus, IN. I guess it is Cummins poliicy not to talk about specific Dodge platform details. He would have probably answered the question if I were inquiring about an ISB6. 7 in a FL or Furd F650.

I called and left messages for two Cummins engineers I have spoken with and who were very helpful in the past. I'm hoping for a call back later today or maybe Monday.

But as I was thinking about the question I am even more skeptical of your opinion that the engine utilizes torque management. We all know that the engine produces about 400 ft. lbs. of torque at clutch engagement rpm, you mentioned that in an earlier post yourself. We all also know that the engine produces max torque from 1500 rpm (pickups) 1600 rpm (C&Cs) to 2700 rpm. We have all seen the torque band graphs in Cummins and Dodge literature. You mentioned part of that as well.

If the engine was using torque management to protect the driveline below say 30 mph the engine wouldn't be producing max torque by 1500 or 1600 rpm. Obviously the engine would quickly reach full torque rpm in the lower gears.

I don't think the AAM spokesman you mentioned knew what he was talking about. Perhaps he was talking about an AAM axle for 1/2 ton applications?

It simply doesn't make sense to me that Dodge would install a weak rear axle assembly incapable of handling the full 610 or 650 ft. lb. torque of the mighty Cummins engine in a work truck such as our Dodge Rams. I have never heard of an owner reporting rear differential failures with either the Gen II Dana or Gen III AAM axles at any mileage up to and including one million miles of heavy towing, even with modified engines. They appear to be strong enough to endure regardless of how they are used and abused.

I will honestly report whatever I am able to learn from a Cummins spokesman if I receive a call back, even if it turns out that I am misinformed.

 

[AH64ID]

If the engine was using torque management to protect the driveline below say 30 mph the engine wouldn't be producing max torque by 1500 or 1600 rpm. Obviously the engine would quickly reach full torque rpm in the lower gears.

The part your forgetting is that the tq is heavily multiplied by the low gearing below 30mph. There really is no need for all that tq to get anything moving withing the GCWR. When you start gaining speed you have a much larger need for power to keep the load moving, by this time the engine makes full power.

I don't think the AAM spokesman you mentioned knew what he was talking about. Perhaps he was talking about an AAM axle for 1/2 ton applications?

It was a 30-45 minute conversation about the AAM 11. 5" axle. From the tq input, to the SRW vs. DRW ratings (no difference actually), to the bearing life span, gear lube, etc... I am 100% confident that the limit on tq I was given was for the 11. 5" AAM axle used in our pickups.

It simply doesn't make sense to me that Dodge would install a weak rear axle assembly incapable of handling the full 610 or 650 ft. lb. torque of the mighty Cummins engine in a work truck such as our Dodge Rams. I have never heard of an owner reporting rear differential failures with either the Gen II Dana or Gen III AAM axles at any mileage up to and including one million miles of heavy towing, even with modified engines. They appear to be strong enough to endure regardless of how they are used and abused.



I will honestly report whatever I am able to learn from a Cummins spokesman if I receive a call back, even if it turns out that I am misinformed.

I would not even use weak in the same paragraph as the AAM 11. 5" axle, its most likely the strongest axle ever used in a LD pick platform. I can't official ratings on the D80 to compare, but the un-official D80 is give or take a few hundred lbs. . so very similar.





You will find the tq management is there. It has to be, 99% of people couldn't handle the truck if it had 650 ft lbs of tq available in 1st gear, it would be touchy and squirly. Granted stock tq management isn't the best, a little less makes the truck tons more drivable. . but no tq management would be a beast. . and its why the least tq management levels on the Smarty requires a built auto or HD clutch. Not factoring in the tq multiplication of a tq converter the unrestricted tq to the wheels would be over 7500 ft/lbs at 10 mph, and over 7900 with a manual at 10 mph, tires don't have that much traction.



The axles are a very strong unit with very few failures, that doesn't mean that they can handle the full tq of the motor in low gears. . But thats only part of the reason for the management, the other part, as I mentioned, is driveablity and traction.

 

[HBarlow]

Uhhhh, I thought that was what the accelerator pedal is for? Certainly a truck would be hard to manage if the driver put his foot to the floor before he released the clutch or whenever he put the shifter in the D position.

Here's what Cummins has to say about the subject:

"This engine is rated with 350 horsepower at just 3013 rpm. The 6. 7L Turbo Diesel achieves a peak torque of 650 lb-ft at 1500 rpm for the automatic transmission configuration and maintains that peak torque all the way to 2800 rpm (a "best in class" capability for a heavy-duty diesel pickup) and a full 610 lb-ft peak torque for the manual transmission. "

The above comment can be read in the text found at this location:

Cummins Every Time - Ram - 6. 7L Turbo Diesel?

I haven't received a return call from either of the Cummins engineers. If I do I will post what they tell me.