2010 towing with 2500

[HBarlow]

The engineers who design and build the trucks don't agree with you. Why would Dodge or any other manufacturer print bogus weights on their GVWR stickers if the truck is capable of carrying several thousand pounds more weight? How do you know a Ram 2500 and Ram 3500 are identical except for overloads? Is that on spec sheets provided by the manufacturer?

Try getting caught hauling commercially by DOT and tell them the only weights that matter are GCWR and GAWR. You can post that here for those who don't know any better but you'll find it is not accurate if DOT inspects you.

If you are hauling commercially and do not have a Class A CDL the first thing a DOT trooper is going to look at is the GVWR tag on the truck and on the trailer. It is not as simple as your post claims it is.

 

[befrazier]

Harvey,



I weighed my truck and camper the other day and this stuff confuses me some. The truck weighed in at, front axle 4700, rear axle 3340 a total of 8040. I then unloaded everything out of the camper and weighed it, front axle 4640, rear axle 5500 and trailer at 10360 a total of 20500. The GVWR on the door panel reads 09900 and the GAWR front 5200, GAWR rear 6150. I then weighed everything that I put back into the camper to stay below GCWR which I believe it to be 23000, I still have 1600lbs to go to reach that point. So to put this short I don't know if I would fall into the limits or not? What do you think with these numbers?



Brian

 

[HBarlow]

Brian,

If I correctly followed your weights and descriptions your truck's tires and axle weight ratings were not exceeded as weighed so that is okay. Axle and tire weights are the most critical from a safety standpoint as well as DOT enforcement. Anyone who knowingly exceeds the carrying capacity of his tires is a fool asking for a blown tire, loss of control, and a potentially fatal accident.

You ARE exceeding the GVWR of your truck which some states will ticket you for if a DOT officer inspects you for any reason. If you are using a good brake controller like a BrakeSmart of MaxBrake the risk is reduced but exceeding GVWR is not a good idea.

The manufacturer's GCWR (gross combined weight rating) are based on the manufacturer's criteria for adequate load starting on a grade, satisfactory ability to maintain a reasonable speed while fully loaded climbing a steep grade, cooling system ability to handle the heat load on hot days, torque capacity of the driveline, frame and suspension strength. braking, and other factors not disclosed. The manufacturer can void a warranty for exceeding the GCWR but I have not heard of it actually being done. Many of us violate the manufacturer's GCWR.

Your situation is common and is the reason many of us will not drive anything less than a dually. A dually pickup or cab and chassis offers many advantages over a single rear wheel truck.

 

[AH64ID]

The engineers who design and build the trucks don't agree with you. Why would Dodge or any other manufacturer print bogus weights on their GVWR stickers if the truck is capable of carrying several thousand pounds more weight? How do you know a Ram 2500 and Ram 3500 are identical except for overloads? Is that on spec sheets provided by the manufacturer?



Try getting caught hauling commercially by DOT and tell them the only weights that matter are GCWR and GAWR. You can post that here for those who don't know any better but you'll find it is not accurate if DOT inspects you.



If you are hauling commercially and do not have a Class A CDL the first thing a DOT trooper is going to look at is the GVWR tag on the truck and on the trailer. It is not as simple as your post claims it is.

I have looked at frame part numbers, and they are the same. . its a cost saving measure for DC, just like every truck is wired for just about every option, fewer parts means more profits.



Look at it this way, since the axles and frame are the the same and the main springs are the same (and overloads are all but useless within the confines of GVWR) the 3500 SRW ratings was based on being under the 10K limit to avoid unnecessary weigh station stops. I believe Ford was the first to break 10K on SRW GVWR and Dodge followed, the 2007 3500 SRW went to 10,100 with no hard part changes.



So if you exclude the overloads (mainly because they take over 2500lbs in the bed to contact in a static situation), there are no physical differences in the 2500 and 3500 SRW, yet the 3500 SRW has a 1,100 more in GVWR and 200 lbs more in RAWR. The rating is 100% because a 3500 SRW has to be rated higher than a 2500; its the reason Dodge didn't offer a 3500 SRW for so long, but people wanted it becuase they think its "tougher". I have one because it was the truck I was looking for and I didn't care if it was a 2500 or 3500 SRW.



If GVWR were more important (not saying its not important, just saying its not the most important) then why would you have axle ratings to get you much higher? The front axle on these trucks (QC LB) has about 4,700 lbs on it in an empty truck situation. If you were to load the bed to RAWR you would be at 10,700 lbs, 2,700 lbs over the GVWR.



Like i have said before, if your not comfortable reading between the lines on what hard parts were used then by all means get the truck that has the GVWR you need. If you are comfortable extrapolating the specs then feel free to do so, just make sure your tires can hold it, and your licensed and tagged for your weight.



As for the DOT and GVWR I have asked multiple times and been told GAWR, tires, and tagged GCWR are what they look at. There may be more to it, but thats what I have found on a consistent basis. I also don't haul commercial, and have no plans to, I am referring purely to personal use.



My last jab at OEM ratings... If OEM ratings were the best and most accurate ratings based soley on hard parts then why is my SRW rated to tow more than the same DRW? We know its based on the numbers game, but a DRW is much more capable of heavy towing, but not according to Dodge.

 

[RustyJC]

My last jab at OEM ratings... If OEM ratings were the best and most accurate ratings based soley on hard parts then why is my SRW rated to tow more than the same DRW? We know its based on the numbers game, but a DRW is much more capable of heavy towing, but not according to Dodge.

If you look at the Dodge Ram base weights/GCW/payload table in the bodybuilder's guide, Dodge makes the following statement regarding trailer towing:

Additionally, the GAWRs and GVWRs should never be exceeded.

Since the manufacturer's trailer tow rating (referred to in the above-referenced table as Max Trail, or maximum allowable trailer weight) is calculated as GCWR minus the truck's curb weight (referred to as Base Weight), a lighter SRW truck that has the same GCWR as a DRW will always have a higher trailer tow rating. However, with a 5th wheel RV that transfers 20% or more of its loaded weight to the truck as pin weight, a SRW truck will almost certainly run out of GVWR long before it reaches GCWR or its trailer tow rating. Therein lies the DRW truck's advantage - it can carry more pin weight before exceeding its GVWR.



Rusty

 

[AH64ID]

They have to put GAWR and GVWR should never be exceeded, just like they have to put that fuel additives are not required.

I do see both side of the situation, and if you want to view it black and white than be my guest, but I can tell you that GVWR means very little to me (GAWR, tires and DRW GVWR of 12,200 are FAR more realistic and important). I have been over GVWR for a 3/4 ton every time I hooked my 5K lb TT to my truck to go camping with the family, even if the bed is empty. I have also exceeded it with a little hunting gear and an elk in the back.

 

[RustyJC]

My point was that the trailer tow rating you cite is one number that can't be taken in isolation. Yes, Dodge says the SRW has a higher trailer tow rating, but on the same piece of paper Dodge says that the SRW's GAWRs and GVWRs should never be exceeded. If one puts stock in one number (i. e. , the trailer tow rating), then it seems to me that one cannot ignore the caveats that Dodge gives in using that number in the real world.



I've seen people rationalize towing over ratings for many years, including the "I can tow more with my 2500 SRW than you can tow with your 3500 DRW". I no longer debate the subject since, at the end of the day, people are going to do what they want to do.



Rusty

 

[AH64ID]

It comes down to what can be done safely. If I am within my GAWR, Tire Rating and under 12,200 GVW I feel just as safe as if I am within my OE 9,900 GVWR since the frame/cab/bed/brakes/drivetrain are the same. But others might not see it the same.

I no longer debate the subject since, at the end of the day, people are going to do what they want to do.



Rusty

That's really all that needs to be said. Everyone has their opinion, and we all know what opinions are like.

 

[befrazier]

Harvey,



Thanks for the info. It is very hard to stay within all the limits with the srw. With the truck weighing 8040 that only leaves basically 1860 for my wife, kids, gear and pin weight if I understand you correctly. The pin weight itself is more than this number. I have a prodigy brake controller and I know what you would say about that, but it seems to work fine. I always take it slow and very careful when I am towing. I hope that DOT pays no attention to me. I can't say that I have ever seen a RVer pulled over by DOT. I will be heading down to Galveston on Saturday to do some fishing and sight seeing so don't alarm DOT that I am coming that way. LOL. All of my storage is in the front of the camper and my water tank is on the back end of the camper, it holds 548lbs, should I fill it or not? Thought that maybe it would give me less pin weight but more GCWR. Your thoughts?



Brian

 

[AH64ID]

You need to weight you truck/trailer combo loaded and look at tire/GAWR setup; unless you want to adhere to the GVWR and if so, you need a DRW.

 

[befrazier]

Don't want a DRW, maybe just get smaller/lighter 5er some day. I bought this one when I was building a house. We lived in it for 7 months. Had 2 kids, 3 dogs and a pregnant wife in it with me. That was fun. LOL. Overall it was'nt that bad. Now the wife loves this huge camper and I wish we had something smaller for sure. Years down the road maybe I can talk her into a lighter unit. I'm sure I will need a new truck by then.



Brian

 

[AH64ID]

As long as your tires aren't overloaded your fine, IMHO.

 

[seafish]

As long as your tires are overloaded your fine, IMHO.

AH64ID, I think you mean as long as his tires are NOT overloaded, right??

 

[AH64ID]

AH64ID, I think you mean as long as his tires are NOT overloaded, right??

haha... . whoops!

 

[HBarlow]

I have looked at frame part numbers, and they are the same. . its a cost saving measure for DC, just like every truck is wired for just about every option, fewer parts means more profits.

Look at it this way, since the axles and frame are the the same and the main springs are the same (and overloads are all but useless within the confines of GVWR) the 3500 SRW ratings was based on being under the 10K limit to avoid unnecessary weigh station stops. I believe Ford was the first to break 10K on SRW GVWR and Dodge followed, the 2007 3500 SRW went to 10,100 with no hard part changes.

Have you actually compared spring part numbers or a Dodge spec sheet to determine true spring ratings? Someone recently posted, perhaps earlier in this thread, that SRW 3500s have rear springs rated to carry something like 7% higher weights than a 2500. Just because they look the same to the eye doesn't necessarily mean they are the same.

The GVWR printed on a truck's door doesn't change anything when it comes to whether the driver has to stop at a weigh scale or not.

So if you exclude the overloads (mainly because they take over 2500lbs in the bed to contact in a static situation), there are no physical differences in the 2500 and 3500 SRW, yet the 3500 SRW has a 1,100 more in GVWR and 200 lbs more in RAWR. The rating is 100% because a 3500 SRW has to be rated higher than a 2500; its the reason Dodge didn't offer a 3500 SRW for so long, but people wanted it becuase they think its "tougher". I have one because it was the truck I was looking for and I didn't care if it was a 2500 or 3500 SRW. [/QUOTE]

If GVWR were more important (not saying its not important, just saying its not the most important) then why would you have axle ratings to get you much higher? The front axle on these trucks (QC LB) has about 4,700 lbs on it in an empty truck situation. If you were to load the bed to RAWR you would be at 10,700 lbs, 2,700 lbs over the GVWR. [/QUOTE]

Like i have said before, if your not comfortable reading between the lines on what hard parts were used then by all means get the truck that has the GVWR you need. If you are comfortable extrapolating the specs then feel free to do so, just make sure your tires can hold it, and your licensed and tagged for your weight. [/QUOTE]

As for the DOT and GVWR I have asked multiple times and been told GAWR, tires, and tagged GCWR are what they look at. There may be more to it, but thats what I have found on a consistent basis. I also don't haul commercial, and have no plans to, I am referring purely to personal use. . [/QUOTE]

That is generally true but not always. They can and do consider the truck's GVWR.

My last jab at OEM ratings... If OEM ratings were the best and most accurate ratings based soley on hard parts then why is my SRW rated to tow more than the same DRW? We know its based on the numbers game, but a DRW is much more capable of heavy towing, but not according to Dodge. [/QUOTE]

Because the GCWR is based on combined weight. Obviously adding a heavy additional pair of tires and other hardware increased the truck's weight so when subtracted from GCWR towing weight is reduced.

But the dually won't run out of rear axle capacity so can safely and legally haul a heavier fifth wheel or gooseneck than a SRW truck.

 

[AH64ID]

Have you actually compared spring part numbers or a Dodge spec sheet to determine true spring ratings? Someone recently posted, perhaps earlier in this thread, that SRW 3500s have rear springs rated to carry something like 7% higher weights than a 2500. Just because they look the same to the eye doesn't necessarily mean they are the same.

Yes I have. The 7% comment came from me. On 4th gens the 2500's and 3500's use a different base back. The 2500's use a 4/1 pack rated at 2600lbs, and the 3500's use a 3/1 pack rated at 2800lbs. The DRW's then have a 2 leaf overload setup rated at 1300lbs.



On a 3rd gen the 2500 and 3500 SRW both use the 4/1 pack, and the 3500 SRW has the two leaf overloads, and 3500 DRW's use the 3/1 pack and the two leaf overloads.

 

[AH64ID]

Returning from my hunting trip I hit the scales, 10,380. 5200 front and 5180 rear, this was with 5/8 fuel. It took about 25 psi in the bags to keep it level (2" level up front). When I got home (30 miles past weigh station) I let the air out of the bags, there was still 1/4 - 1/2 above the overloads before the contact pads.

The truck rode amazing, and had zero excessive role, normal braking, etc. Other than an improved ride the truck handled like it does empty, 8K lbs.

My point is this, if I were to obey 100%, and Dodge built the truck based on GVWR then the overloads wouldn't be there. Sure the rear axle was 1,000 below RAWR, but there is no room for that. Empty my front axle is at 4700 lbs, leaving 5200lbs for the rear axle based on GVWR, and at 5200 on the rear the overloads aren't engaged. I also feel this is the reason overloads are gone on the 4th gen 3500 SRW trucks, there is really no need for them, especially when you put the 7% stiffer 3/1 leafs on the truck.

Last note, the FAWR is a very hard number to confide to. On the way up to hunt the truck was 9,340, with the front at 5,240. I had the bed full and evenly loaded, but was still over on the FAW with the back seat empty. For the return trip the back seat was FULL of clothes, but I put all the meat (750lbs) was behind the rear axle, and I was at the FAWR, A 6K lb front axle would have been a good idea on QC trucks, even on the new CC with 5,500 I think its still easy to bust. It could be why we go thru ball joints so easy.

Thats my . 02 for the day.