Filter Minder

[AH64ID]

There is a big difference in detrimental and sub-optimal. I am sure it works just fine, but a true cold intake setup is cheap ($15), and I know it will work better. There is nothing wrong with your setup, as you have noted, just not the way I would recommend it as the other method is cheap and easy, just not free and super-easy.

Do you have anything that shows your intake air temps? That would be a big indicator. I was a mere 6° above ambient yesterday cruising at 70.

 

[steved]

There is a big difference in detrimental and sub-optimal. I am sure it works just fine, but a true cold intake setup is cheap ($15), and I know it will work better. There is nothing wrong with your setup, as you have noted, just not the way I would recommend it as the other method is cheap and easy, just not free and super-easy.



Do you have anything that shows your intake air temps? That would be a big indicator. I was a mere 6° above ambient yesterday cruising at 70.

And you have proof my setup is sub-optimal?? How sub-optimal? Does it make a hill of beans in the real world... I seriously doubt it.

 

[AH64ID]

Optimal is as close to ambient as possible, if your pulling from the engine bay it's warmer than ambient, thus sub-optimal. You keep referencing Gary's research, but that was a different body style, but more importantly you state the temps weren't that high, but they were still higher than ambient correct?

On a HPCR for every 1* rise in IAT you get a 1. 5* rise in EGT, while I highly doubt there is more than a 10* difference between your truck and mine at highway speeds and high air flow, thats still a difference. Where the biggest difference would be is on slow speed, high ambient, high EGT, and low airflow days. . which depending on how you use your truck it may not be an issue, but for me it is (hence the exhaust wrap, HD CAI, etc).

Again, I am not trying to say your setup doesn't work for you or is a bad idea. . just that there are probably better gains from dropping a 3" piece of PVC to the ambient air. But ultimatly it's probably not noticable on most peoples gauges, and it did what it was supposed to do. . it keeps the turbo supplied with all the air it needs!

 

[CKelley1]

ok sub optimal is better, there are many test with calculations showing the expanded air reduces the the amount of air available to the engine by the expansion ratio. for $15 why not do it right.

 

[steved]

there are many test with calculations showing the expanded air reduces the the amount of air available to the engine by the expansion ratio.

And we have a compressor for what reason? I'd buy your argument if we were talking a naturally aspirated engine.

I can't add anything else... my system is 100% flawed, and obviously doesn't work; so don't use it.

 

[cerberusiam]

On a HPCR for every 1* rise in IAT you get a 1. 5* rise in EGT, while I highly doubt there is more than a 10* difference between your truck and mine at highway speeds and high air flow, thats still a difference.

Just to be clear IAT as measured at the engine intake not the turbo intake, correct?



Then again, can you measure a 15 degree EGT difference? Most of these gauges that will not even show.



What is the net effect in the cylinder of 10 degree warmer air? Can it be measured? At what point does this become a factor?



Since the air is compressed by the turbo then cooled can a difference across the CAC actually be measured, and, at what boost does the difference become significant enough to measure?



The thing to remember is its not a linear increase from turbo inlet to cylinder. Just because the air is 10 degrees over ambient at the turbo inlet does not mean it will be 10 degrees higher in the cylinder. There are too many other factors in the path to state that as an absolute.



At a certain boost level you will ALWAYS have hotter air than ambient temp reflects. At lower boost levels the CAC will be more than efficient to keep the IAT constant with a range of ambient temps.



Its a good argument point for cool air but providing subjective evidence to definitely prove that a PSM mod is better than a drilled airbox is better than an AFE is better than a BHAF is all but impossible. Only in a lab environment will it be even close to achievable and then the results go out the window in actual application due to the outside variables.



Its like the fuel temperature argument, there is NO clear answer. :-laf

 

[AH64ID]

Yes that's IAT's as being read from the MAP sensor.

15* EGT difference, no can't be measured on a typical installation.

The net effect is that warmer air is less dense, so your pulling air that isn't as dense as it could be, and compressing it and sending it to the engine. The cooler the air you start with the higher %age of O2 you get to the cylinder.

The difference across the CAC is huge, I have never measured CAC inlet, but at WOT towing up a grade I only ever saw about +45* on the stock turbo, and +30* on this turbo. I guarantee that at a 3:1 PR the discharge air is much hotter than that, I have heard upwords of 300*.

I have seen on the dyno where an AFE Stage II made the same rwhp as the stock setup, and then I have seen the numerical benefits to the home depot mod, and other air intake mods I made on the gauges, and filter minder. . So I know that the setup out preforms the commercially available CAI's.

steved, no one is saying your setup doesn't work. More air is better; more, cooler air is best.

 

[cerberusiam]

The net effect is that warmer air is less dense, so your pulling air that isn't as dense as it could be, and compressing it and sending it to the engine. The cooler the air you start with the higher %age of O2 you get to the cylinder.



The difference across the CAC is huge, I have never measured CAC inlet, but at WOT towing up a grade I only ever saw about +45* on the stock turbo, and +30* on this turbo. I guarantee that at a 3:1 PR the discharge air is much hotter than that, I have heard upwords of 300*.

That would be a gross effect not net. Net effect would be the actual measurable power difference at the crank is what I am saying. What percentage of O2 depletion in the air charge will provide a net negative effect? 1%, 5%, 10%? Then, at what ambient and boost level will it manifest?



Air density has different components and the end result is not linear when the components are variable, like boost and temp. Then add in the comp wheel and its efficiency across a map and the end reuslt varies more. Run it thru a CAC and the variance widens. The mathematical model to calculate an accurate result is extremely gnarly and still predicated on constants at certain points. It verges on impossible to make a broad definite proof that 10 degrees of ambient temp difference makes x HP difference at the other end.



The theoretical benefits are not arguable, they are absolute. The efficacy in actual application is what throws all the variables into the equation to develop a proof that can withstand the application.



Not disagreeing, just pointing out hard proof is very hard to develop.



IIRC from he sidewinder project, at around 40 lbs of boost the CAC in was at 350-380 degrees, output at around 160-180. They used and ice water cooler to drop that another 50 degrees when shooting for a speed record. Pretty much everybody including Gale Banks took away the fact that on the street in normal conditions even the OE temps are hard to quantify a difference across 100 degrees.

 

[AH64ID]

Yeah on the street we just don't hold sustained boost long enough to make a huge difference. . Even thou my stock setup would spike to well over 30 psi on grade the most I ever really held sustain on a grade was about 30, and then the IAT's were +45° from ambient. . which isn't too bad. . even now where I top out at +30° the difference is only 22° on the EGT's. . not much, the drop I got in EGT's on the new turbo is more from freer flowing exhaust. . 27 psi of boost only takes 25 psi of drive on a grade!

 

[cerberusiam]

The 45 over ambient is not bad at all and the 30 is even better. It ends up being a trade off of better air to warmer air for combustion though. Denser air is going to be cooler and that may end up robbing some power having to heat it during combustion instead of using the extra heat to generate downward thrust. On a DD if the IAT is within 20 degrees of 150 it seems to be optimal for the bulk of the driving we do. Sub-optimal if your shooting for big HP or records.



It is frequnetly just not a factor for the fuel injected that more oxygen is needed.



How sensitve is your IAT temp gauge? 200 degrees top? 300 top? How close to ambient at cold idle is it?

 

[AH64ID]

I am not sure there is a loss of power from heating denser air, as the volume is greater so there is more compression on it, thus a greater heating effect. It's probably a wash on compression energy vs power output. The ECM does adjust timing based on IAT's so it's probably compensated for.

The IAT gauge is the OEM MAP sensor, and I read it thru my SGII on the OBDII port. The hottest I have seen is in the 150° range after shutting down a hot motor at the store, and getting back in.

At cold idle, or prior to starting the truck the IAT, Coolant, and ambient are with 1-2° of each other, unless the ambient sensor is in the sun. At first driving, once the grids quit, its within 1-2° of ambient as well, until the motor gets to operating temp. Normal cruise as I am setup now is about 5-12° above ambient. I see 10° above when towing on flat ground with the new turbo, where 15° was about as low as the stock turbo ever got.

 

[mwilson]

There is another option here.



Keep the stock filter minder or buy a better one. Even mount a filter gauge in the cab.

That way you can always check the condition and integrity of the intake system. If it plugs with snow you know immediately. If the restriction drops over time you have a suction issue and are getting dirty air introduced into your engine.

I have been trained over the years by various filter companies the following rule on big stuff... ... ...

Leave the filter alone until the restriction gauge indicates a change is needed, I'm talking 20 or better. Every time you fool with the element you knock dirt into the wide open system, can't be helped. Therefore less disturbance, less dirt entry.

Also a coating of dirt makes the filter more efficient. If you don't believe me, do some research, it is the case.

These aren't 350 Chevys, and as long as the restriction gauge doesn't show any more than 20 or so you are good. Yes, you get a little more whoooomp when you put a fresh element in but doesn't last long.

Cummins, Cat, Detroit, ThermoKing, etc. all install filter minders and believe in them on engines that will see far more hours than these pickups will.

I will do as they do... ... :-laf



JMHO.



Mike.

 

[cerberusiam]

Cummins, Cat, Detroit, ThermoKing, etc. all install filter minders and believe in them on engines that will see far more hours than these pickups will.

That works just fine when the filter is the size of a 5 gallon bucket. :-laf



However, sizing that filter smaller than a bread box then applying the same rules does not work as well. Efficacy of a filter not only encompasses filtration but also air flow. Different filter media reacts differently to dirt loading when it comes to actual performance mesurements.



More than one parameter in effect when it comes to an air filter.

 

[mwilson]

That works just fine when the filter is the size of a 5 gallon bucket. :-laf



However, sizing that filter smaller than a bread box then applying the same rules does not work as well. Efficacy of a filter not only encompasses filtration but also air flow. Different filter media reacts differently to dirt loading when it comes to actual performance measurements.



More than one parameter in effect when it comes to an air filter.

Agreed, many factors are in play and air filter/air intake engineering is complicated.



I am only attempting to point out the stock air intake system is more than adequate for most of us and the filter minder is a useful tool for filter element life even on these pickups.



My air cleaner awareness is heightened every time a C-15 Cat gets dragged in here dusted at 50,000 miles, that really brings home to me how little dirt it takes to clean house on a turbocharged engine.



So in my one track parts man mind if the stock air filtration system on my trucks was in any way inadequate for flow or integrity then my filter minder would be locked into the red zone every time I checked it or would never indicate at all.

The fact that the '06 is locked at 14-15 right now tells me that the system is intact and working as it should. If it never locked I would be digging for a system/ductwork leak.



But that is never the case so I feel it is a well designed system and trust it.



BTW, the filter minders on our trucks are graduated and designed the same as any other piece of diesel equipment no matter how big or small. A restriction of 15 is the same draw be it a Dodge pickup filter or a Cat D9 dozer filter.



Also I think one reason for the 5 gallon bucket filter cans is to help extend element changes and still provide a set amount of air, not to give more air to the engine. It can only draw so much.



Standard option for FL Classic trucks back in the day was one filter can, right side mounted. Dual breathers were an option, not a requirement, from what I can see it is a looks option because the drivers/owners throw hundreds of dollars away over the life of the truck by changing that pair of elements once or twice, sometimes 3-4 times a year, when they be should be using the restriction gauge and going 2-3 years between changes.

Now this is for highway use, not off road.



Good with me, I get to sell a boatload of elements because the ones that they remove look "dirty".



The new filter element for a Coronado SD truck with a DD15 or 16 is mounted on top of the engine and is fairly flat. New design and is not all that big.

Replacement element costs around $450. 00 or so, hope people don't change that thing at will and instead use the gauge for the purpose it was designed for.



I will try to get a few shots of various filtration systems in play today on new trucks, everyones perception of huge air cleaners may change.



Mike.

 

[Bill Stockard]

Standard option for FL Classic trucks back in the day was one filter can, right side mounted. Dual breathers were an option, not a requirement, from what I can see it is a looks option because the drivers/owners throw hundreds of dollars away over the life of the truck by changing that pair of elements once or twice, sometimes 3-4 times a year, when they be should be using the restriction gauge and going 2-3 years between changes.



Mike.

I agree. Those big trash can size dual chrome plated air cleaners mounted on each side of the cab are "eye candy". There's no requirement for them other than looks... about as critical for operation of the truck as polished stainless steel fuel tank straps. :-laf



Bill

 

[AH64ID]

Has anyone compared the sq inches of media in a BHAF to the stock 4" pleat filter? For it's size the OEM filter has a lot of surface area. Most of the BHAF and big rig filters are not as deep on the pleat so even thou the filter is larger the amount of media isn't as big for the size. It's all about room, BHAF's are easier cheaper to build, but take up a lot more space for the same media, the OEM's on our trucks are smaller but have to flow so they cost more to make... . in the end flow isn't as different as overall size.

I'm not stating that the 5 gallon BHAF on a ISX flows the same, or less, than our OEM one. . But cfm/size I bet our OEM is better!

 

[cerberusiam]

It's all about room, BHAF's are easier cheaper to build, but take up a lot more space for the same media, the OEM's on our trucks are smaller but have to flow so they cost more to make

You priced an AH19037 or Donaldson equivalent lately? They are getting expensive.

But cfm/size I bet our OEM is better!

I would hazard a guess it is within a narrower CFM range. The restriction curve is going to be sharper as the flow goes up but as long as its within its range it is a very good performer.

 

[AH64ID]

I finally got around to monitoring the underhood temps. My DD needs an outside air temp gauge so I bought one with a 10' sender and used it in the truck this weekend. I put the sensor in 2 different spots outside the OEM airbox, at both of the clamps on the motor side of the airbox. I also programmed my ScanGauge II to show me the temps from the IAT sensor in the intake tube, so I was able to monitor ambient temp, underhood temp, Intake Manifold temp, and intake tube temp. All of the findings below are once the truck reached operating temp, since cold temps were quite different and we spend most of our time at operating temp. The majority of the miles were at a GCW of 15. 5K.

As for my truck, its as stated in the sig with the addition of a home depot CAI, and manifold/turbine blankets (which I know decreases the underhood temps).

My points will be generalized.

With the exception of long downhill coasting the underhood temps were always 20-60° higher than the intake pipe. On long hills the underhood temps would go over 160° (where the temp gauge just read "HI"), while the highest I saw the intake pipe temp was 8° over ambient, and the highest intake manifold temp was 123°, again on a long steep grade. The underhood temps were never lower than the temp in the intake manifold.

Flat cruising at 45 the temps are still up to 40° higher, at 55 they are up to 30° higher and 65 up to about 25° higher, while the OEM airbox provides air ±1° from the ambient reading as long as the boost/coolant temps are not elevated.

All in all I am quite happy with the OEM airbox's ability to provide sufficient cold air to the intake. This again shows there is no reason to do anything else up to 450 rwhp, or more.

I do realize I was measuring air on the hottest side of the box, but that was my point as it's also the least restricted side. Even if the BHAF pulls lots of air from the fender it will never be able to even cut the difference in half, still pulling air hotter than the motor gets fed now.