Starting The List.

[Lumpy]

Hey all,

So, the time has come, The time to wake the old girl up! I'm ready to start modding the truck. Been tossing around some ideas and figured i'd ask the congregation as to what they think.



The past few trucks that I've built have been for either work, or all out power. This go-round, I want to shoot for fuel economy. With the ever rising fuel prices, and the fact that I plan on driving this truck until it wont go anymore, makes me want to make it the most reliable and efficient that i can.



I've already got a 4inch Silverline turbo-back exhaust, AFE stage 2 intake and Autometer factory match 60psi boost, 0-1600 degree pyro, and 0-30psi fuel pressure gauge set coming for her.



I plan on eventually throwing DDP stage 1 injectors in, exhaust manifold, intake horn, larger intercooler( I was lucky enough to score the plastic end tanks on the factory one in my truck), Possibly either a helix 2 or a colt big stick cam, Bypass oil filters, fass suel system, head studs, o-rings, Smarty, and an upgraded clutch(not sure which brand yet, still looking through reviews). Going to install a borgeson steering box, dynatrac free spins and balljoints, steering brace and HD trackbar.



I have two upgrades that I'm on the fence about.



1) Single or sequential turbos? What are the advantage & disadvantages? Would it be cost effective? Anyone have a real world comparison?



2) I've been toying with the idea of propane injection. Anyone run this? I know plenty of guys running water/meth, but that's more for keeping your egt's in check. Is it really worth it?



I do mostly highway driving when I'm not at the mine. Moderate towing of up to 30ft boats, bobcats, mini excavators, skid steers. I usually do a couple 2-5k mile road trips a year.



I'm not looking for crazy ponies and torque, but i'd be happy around the 450-500 range, with efficiency the number one priority.



I greatly appreciate everyone's input and opinions and experiences.



Kevin

 

[Lumpy]

BTW, my truck just rolled 67,000 Miles

 

[Wertles]

Just my opinion, the money you are planning on spending on mods will never pay for themselves in fuel economy savings. You have only put on 67,000 miles in 6 years and the truck will have long rotted away before you rack up enough miles to break even. HOWEVER, the smile on your face with 500 HP is priceless. Best bang for the buck is a Smarty Jr, upgraded clutch,the free spin kit and possibly the Fass. With this setup, you won't be at 450 or 500 but you will have a reliable truck that can last you a very long time. Remember, increased performance = decreased longevity/reliability(hence one of the reasons for the derated 6. 7 in the C&C). If you are after saving money, it's going to be a loss. If you want power and bragging rights for best MPG, you are on the right track.

 

[Prairie Dog]

For even better economy, DDP has 25-30 HP injectors.

 

[ENafziger]

Better PM a guy on here named CKelley1. If he doesn't mind me quoting, this is what he says:

i have three 06's with the pdr cam and he351 turbo. it works very well. we tow heavy and are after mpg at tow speed and load. the cam experts tell us the pdr cam gave more low rpm torque and other parameters we were looking for than the helix 2. we changed the oem out to the pdr to do away with the in cylinder egr and the pdr restores the exhaust cam lobe timing to the best spot for efficiency. change the injector nozzles to ddp 50 hp at the same time as cam you have the injectors exposed at this point and eliminates the labor cost. the smarty jr restores the injection timing, the pdr restores the exhaust timing the pdr shortens the injection duration. the combination will give 4. 5 mpg increase. and about 300-400 ft lb increase in low end torque the turbo works very well in this application. the only time the turbo was a little small i had a gross weight of 36,000 lbs pulling a 6% grade 15 miles long and ended at 9,000 feet elevation i could see the exhaust in the mirror and i had some black smoke i just backed off of it just a little to where there was no sine<!-- google_ad_section_end --> <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
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He went from 14 - 15 mpg empty, to 23 mpg. Do some reading on his posts.

Here's my thoughts. Like CKelley1, the dynatrac kit isn't going to do much for mileage. I saw no increase in economy with the Helix 2. You might be better to take CKelley1's approach cam-wise. I saw no mileage increase with my Flux 2. 5s, which are a 125 hp injector. People have seen increases in efficiency with the DDP50 and particularly good results with the DDP90s (see relentless diesel's writeup in regards to that).

I have done AFE Bladerunner intake, 5" straight pipe, all synthetic fluids, AFE Stage 2 intake, centramatic wheel balancers, balance master driveshaft balancers, helix 2 cam, fluidampr, dynatrac hub conversion with dynatrac hubs, etc, etc, etc. I added a Mitchell overdrive unit. I have 11 or more gauges monitoring everything. I've tried Smarty (every version that came out), Smarty PoD, TST ecomony, Edge EZ, TS MP-8, etc. My net mileage increase was zero... nothing... nada... zilcho. I've also tried a dozen fuel additives with the same effect.

My average stock was around 17. 2 mpg. My average now is around 14 mpg. I am running larger tires and have added weight with bigger bumpers... and that's what I attribute the economy loss to.

I don't know why I'm not getting better mileage. I've done everything everyone says to, but I don't get the results that others claim to get.

In theory, to obtain better economy, lower your rolling resistance, lower your weight, increase aerodynamics, operate the engine in its efficiency range (1700 - 1900 rpm), lower frictional losses with synthetics, and increase timing slightly.

Moreover, an engine in its simplest form, is an air pump... . air in, and air out. From a mpg standpoint, you'd be far better off pulling your head and having a good port job done, as well as milling off the intake and doing a runner type manifold. This shouldn't cost much more than the dynatrac upgrade, and I bet you'd see alot better performance from it.

I'd also skip o-ringing. It's simply not needed under 650 hp or so. Just do the studs and bottom tap.

What is your fuel mileage now?

--Eric

 

[cerberusiam]

I don't know why I'm not getting better mileage. I've done everything everyone says to, but I don't get the results that others claim to get.

Uhh, 37" tires, Helix 2, and 120 hp tips MIGHT have something to do with that. :-laf Did you regear with the tall tires? Your probably lucky at 14 mpg with all that is there.

I'm not looking for crazy ponies and torque, but i'd be happy around the 450-500 range, with efficiency the number one priority.

Seriously, a Smarty and FASS will do that. Everything else at that level is really overkill. Its maxed the stock turbo at that point but with a manual its doable.



A lot of what you are suggesting is pure performance additions, not efficiency. You need to decide what you want and build accordingly. A lot of the things you suggest are simply going to reduce the longevity and not really contribute to efficiency.



Artic air twins, a Smarty, FASS, 40-60 HP tips, a cam that removes the emissions grind, and a good clutch will easily do what you want.



The twin turbos are expensive so you might consider a good single first to see what it will do. Something like a Garret Stage II or an SPS 62\12 should do nicely to handle power uprate and still tow.



Don't go overboard on the turbo or you will be disappointed. Keep it smaller and efficient that way it will make a good primary if a twins setup catches your fancy.



The Helix 2 and Big Stick cams are performance types and will hurt the efficiency. Go with the mild grind that is closer to what the 24V and early CR was. You don't need all the rest of the lift and duration with a turbo unless you want big power and rpm's.

 

[Grizzly]

What's wrong with the stock engine. Save your money, leave it alone and it will give you more longevity and less maintenance.

 

[ENafziger]

The Helix 2 and Big Stick cams are performance types and will hurt the efficiency.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but there is a lot of misinformation about cams. I wouldn't consider the Helix 2 a performance cam, as you don't have to flycut the pistons, use a thicker headgasket or anything. I had found in my research that many reported a 1 - 3 mpg gain with the Helix 2. That was NOT the results I had at all. I was also told that Flux 2. 5s were the largest you could go without having any detrimental effect on fuel economy, and that's why I chose them. (As a side note, it's a little odd that you can never talk to the manufacturer of these products. I'll withhold other statements from a public forum).

I would definately do alot of things differently if I had it to do over again. Sadly, I listened to alot of the propaganda on the forums and based my choices on that. I wish more people were honest enough to get past the placebo effect and report true results.

I installed a Helix 2 based on others' recommendations. It is a "mild" cam, and supposedly takes the black out of the oil, increases efficiency, and eliminates the passive in-cylinder EGR. After the Helix 2 install, my oil is still just as black (I also use a by-pass filter, filtermags, donaldson ELF7349 primary, etc), and I gained no detectable change in efficiency. The turbo did seem to spool better, which would indicate better air exchange efficiency, but I have no data to back that up. I will say that the lobes on the Helix 2 are much skinnier than the OEM cam, and the rough cast part of the cam looks... well, very rough and cast compared with OEM.

No, I didn't re-gear with the 37s. Rather, going with 37" tires was part of my plan to re-gear. The truck in stock form was wound pretty tight on the interstate at 70 - 75 mph. Many people reported that going with taller tire actually increased their fuel mileage on the interstate by allowing the engine to operate in its efficiency range. Again, my experience proved otherwise.

Something that is not said alot, but probably should be... just because it's aftermarket and costs alot, doesn't mean it's an "upgrade".

I was young and dumb once. Looking back, I can see the error of my ways

--Eric

 

[AH64ID]

I have done most of my most with efficiency in mind. The added power is the most noticed benefit, but the efficiency of the motor is great!

4" turbo back exhaust and an AFE Stage 2 will do nothing but make your wallet lighter. The truck already has a 4" exhaust, and the OEM intake will preform the same or better than the AFE Stage 2 up thru at least 450 rwhp.

If I were to build a truck purely for efficiency (which really is just for fun as you will NEVER recoup the cost) here is how it would go...

Smarty Jr
DDP 30-50 hp nozzles
Colt Stage 1 Cam or new Hamilton Mileage cam
Home Depot CAI
Airaid MIT
GDP Intake Horn
Garrett Stage 2 Turbo
Manifold/Turbine Blankets
ATS or similar exhaust manifold
Free-spin hubs
Custom 4" front air dam
highway tread tires
Full synthetic fluids


And these mods not based on mileage:
bypass oil filter
2um fuel filtration


I have done many of the mods above and can say that I have not lost any mileage with any of them, most don't effect it in a noticeable amount but the cam/turbo did make a difference for the better.

But what it all comes down to in the end is your right foot and your speed. I have never broken 20 mpg, but others have with bone stock trucks. I don't drive very hard, but do live in a mountainous region, that too has an effect on mileage.

 

[ENafziger]

I have done most of my most with efficiency in mind. The added power is the most noticed benefit, but the efficiency of the motor is great!

4" turbo back exhaust and an AFE Stage 2 will do nothing but make your wallet lighter. The truck already has a 4" exhaust, and the OEM intake will preform the same or better than the AFE Stage 2 up thru at least 450 rwhp.

If I were to build a truck purely for efficiency (which really is just for fun as you will NEVER recoup the cost) here is how it would go...

Smarty Jr
DDP 30-50 hp nozzles
Colt Stage 1 Cam or new Hamilton Mileage cam
Home Depot CAI
Airaid MIT
GDP Intake Horn
Garrett Stage 2 Turbo
Manifold/Turbine Blankets
ATS or similar exhaust manifold
Free-spin hubs
Custom 4" front air dam
highway tread tires
Full synthetic fluids


And these mods not based on mileage:
bypass oil filter
2um fuel filtration


I have done many of the mods above and can say that I have not lost any mileage with any of them, most don't effect it in a noticeable amount but the cam/turbo did make a difference for the better.

But what it all comes down to in the end is your right foot and your speed. I have never broken 20 mpg, but others have with bone stock trucks. I don't drive very hard, but do live in a mountainous region, that too has an effect on mileage. <!-- google_ad_section_end -->

That's a great list, and no doubt makes sense. However, I have to wonder about guys like CKelley1 that I mentioned above who claim 23+ mpg consistently... have they found the secret combination of mods that really work together to achieve results 20% - 60% better than others? I would think not, but then again I don't know...

The above list you made are great "bolt on" mods. However, I think if efficiency is the goal, some non-traditional things may make a bigger difference... things like porting the head and having it flow tested for optimization, shaving the intake, and going with the '03 - '04. 5 style piston. Was it "supersonic" or "comp461" or someone else on CompD that always talked like they had big ideas concerning this type of thing... I forget now, but the jist of what they were saying, is that they had had much better luck at spending money at truly modding the engine rather than just bolting the usual parts on to it.

--Eric

 

[AH64ID]

That's a great list, and no doubt makes sense. However, I have to wonder about guys like CKelley1 that I mentioned above who claim 23+ mpg consistently... have they found the secret combination of mods that really work together to achieve results 20% - 60% better than others? I would think not, but then again I don't know...



The above list you made are great "bolt on" mods. However, I think if efficiency is the goal, some non-traditional things may make a bigger difference... things like porting the head and having it flow tested for optimization, shaving the intake, and going with the '03 - '04. 5 style piston. Was it "supersonic" or "comp461" or someone else on CompD that always talked like they had big ideas concerning this type of thing... I forget now, but the jist of what they were saying, is that they had had much better luck at spending money at truly modding the engine rather than just bolting the usual parts on to it.



--Eric

Aside from the injectors I have most of the same mods as Ckelly and I didn't see anywhere near the improvement he did. Maybe its driving speeds?? I know he load tested his setups on a 100 hp drag dyno for his improvements. I also think he has done some aerodynamic stuff to his truck.

 

[cerberusiam]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but there is a lot of misinformation about cams. I wouldn't consider the Helix 2 a performance cam, as you don't have to flycut the pistons, use a thicker headgasket or anything.

Maybe not a true "performance" cam but more like an RV cam in gasser terms. Either way, it seems beyond the OE engineered specifics minus the emissions adds that they just don't gain efficiency. Now, without the 120 HP nozzles that may change. From everything I cna find anything more than 40-50 HP tips, maker dependent, your not gaining efficiency just top end power.

(As a side note, it's a little odd that you can never talk to the manufacturer of these products. I'll withhold other statements from a public forum).

You didn't have the secret squirrel password.

I wish more people were honest enough to get past the placebo effect and report true results.

Yep. Claims are just that. Too many variables to judge exactly how valid the info is.

No, I didn't re-gear with the 37s. Rather, going with 37" tires was part of my plan to re-gear. The truck in stock form was wound pretty tight on the interstate at 70 - 75 mph. Many people reported that going with taller tire actually increased their fuel mileage on the interstate by allowing the engine to operate in its efficiency range.

Its a fine line, a balance between leverage and rolling resistance. Some people think that the efficiency range of these engines is 1600 rpms cuz thats where the TQ peak is so its gotta be right. Never mind the published best BSFC is 1950 rpms, less is always better. It just doesn't work that way ever.



I see it on the 3rd gens, the 1st gens, and the 2nd gens. There is a line on tire size and gearing that will tip things to the downside. Can't ignore BSFC specifics in favor of rpms cuz it doesn't always work.

 

[ENafziger]

Its a fine line, a balance between leverage and rolling resistance. Some people think that the efficiency range of these engines is 1600 rpms cuz thats where the TQ peak is so its gotta be right. Never mind the published best BSFC is 1950 rpms, less is always better. It just doesn't work that way ever.

I perfectly agree. According to Klenger's chart, with a G56 in 6th gear with 3. 73 ratio and stock tires, 73 mph is 2300 rpm. Changing to 37" tires allows me to run 73 mph at exactly 1950 rpm. However, although I'm now running the engine at optimum bsfc, the fuel economy is worse; obviously because the increased rolling resistance and poorer aerodynamics of a lifted truck more than negate the benefit of getting into the bsfc sweet spot.

In my opinion, with our trucks, aerodynamics have a LOT more to do with overall fuel economy than trying to increase the engine's efficiency. It's just that not many people work on aerodynamic mods

You didn't have the secret squirrel password.

Obviously not. I tried to contact him several times without success. I've read plenty of what the Soup Nazi has said to others though, so he obviously talks to some people. I'm not blaming, I'm just sayin.

I also think he has done some aerodynamic stuff to his truck. <!-- google_ad_section_end --> <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Yes he has. He runs the air tabs or something similar, 1500 tailgate spoiler, etc. I've always thought of trying the air tabs, but without a wind tunnel, it seems like a guessing science.

--Eric

 

[cerberusiam]

Aerodynamics is the big thing with these trucks. Break 70 mph and the descent steepens dramatically. Lift them 3 inches and I don't care how you tweak them you never gain anything because the amount of air that gets under it equals drag.



My truck will consistently make 21+ mpg empty at less than 65 mph. At 55 it is a bit more. at 70 mph about 17 is the average.



I think a lot of these guys that report these mileage increases are driving 55 to get a good number. Either that or their route is down hill both ways.

 

[Nyoest]

Top speed and driving style are king in fuel mileage gains. The wife can get twenty two miles to the gallon in my 96. BEST I ever did was eighteen and that was trying!

 

[AEdelheit]

Uhh, 37" tires, Helix 2, and 120 hp tips MIGHT have something to do with that. :-laf Did you regear with the tall tires? Your probably lucky at 14 mpg with all that is there.

Just my personal experience, I had 3. 73, G56 and 37" yokohama ATS, much lighter and less aggresive tire then Erics Toyos, around town was 17, Highway was 18-19 with a best of 21. 5 coming back from Oregon, all hand Calculated with a corrected Speedo. From what ive read the G56 3. 73 vs. 48RE 4. 11 have almost the same OD ratio so driving with stock tires if your not towing definitely hurts on the freeway. In 2007 I drove to Killeen TX, stock tires doing 80-85 and averaged 12MPG. Similar driving with the 37's was 15 at that speed, but I normally like to cruise around 75.

 

[JLovas]

As far as reliability from the transmission's standpoint, remember to over fill it by at least 1 qt. Standard Transmission told me to run 7 quarts of AMSoil Manual synchromesh transmission fluid when I received my rebuilt NV5600 from them with the power lube package.

 

[AH64ID]

Just my personal experience, I had 3. 73, G56 and 37" yokohama ATS, much lighter and less aggresive tire then Erics Toyos, around town was 17, Highway was 18-19 with a best of 21. 5 coming back from Oregon, all hand Calculated with a corrected Speedo. From what ive read the G56 3. 73 vs. 48RE 4. 11 have almost the same OD ratio so driving with stock tires if your not towing definitely hurts on the freeway. In 2007 I drove to Killeen TX, stock tires doing 80-85 and averaged 12MPG. Similar driving with the 37's was 15 at that speed, but I normally like to cruise around 75.

Tire weight is huge. The yokohoma's range from 72-73lbs a 37, depending on rim size, where the Toyo's are 20lbs a tire heavier!

Final drives

NV5600 w/ 3. 73's : 2. 73:1
NV5600 w/ 4. 10's : 2. 99:1
G56 AD w/ 3. 73's : 2. 95:1
G56 AE w/ 3. 73's : 2. 76:1
48RE w/ 3. 73's : 2. 57:1
48RE w/ 4. 10's : 2. 83: 1

But with all that said I have found that rpms really aren't that important on a HPCR. My dad has a G56 and I have a NV5600, both with 3. 73's and similar sized tires. Our freeway mileage difference in negligible, sometimes he does better sometimes I do. But if your going fast enough to be above 2500 rpms you will have worse mileage due to the horrible restriction the HE351 puts on the motor at those rpms, regardless of gearing.

 

[PWirth]

Tires can make a huge difference in the actual mileage that you get. And it is not just the tire weight. I found this quote from Goodyear's website focused on OTR trucks and trailers:

All Things Being Equal, The Following Statements May Be Made About Tires:
-Shallow original tread tires have lower rolling resistance than deep original tread tires
-Rib tires have lower rolling resistance than lug tires
-Old tires have lower rolling resistance than brand new tires
-Worn tires have lower rolling resistance than brand new tires

I have been logging my mileage since I got my pickup and have been running the tires that came with it during the summer. They are a Toyo Open Country tire and are getting really bald, but my mileage has crept up by almost 2mpg over the past 3 summers. And I immediately lose that much mileage when I put my winter tires on (not slipping and sliding all over the road is far more important than mileage). They have some new tires for the OTR trucks that are a wide single to replace the duals. Since they only have two sidewalls to flex instead of four they reduce the rolling resistance. I haven't seen any of that style for pickups yet.

So, if you are running a 37" mud tire you will get a significantly different mileage than if you ran a 37" commercial delivery truck tire. I could easily see a 3 mpg difference unloaded from just the tire style.

One other thing about mileage and the effect of rolling resistance vs wind resistance. The rolling resistance has a linear relationship with speed where wind resistance has a squared relationship with speed. So, if the wind resistance and the rolling resistance are each causing 100lbs of force at 55 mph then at 75 mph the rolling resistance force would be 136 lbs and the wind resistance would be 186 lbs. So, if you really want to get better mileage above 65 mph start focusing on the things you can change to improve the aerodynamics of your truck. Adding a larger air dam up front, partially blocking the openings for the radiator, adding airtabs, tonneau covers or toppers, and streamlining the undercarriage can make a huge difference in the highway mileage.

 

[AMcCormick]

Well the truck in signature has a best of 19 and a worse of 14 unloaded. The truck has some new parts on it and have not upgraded the signature. I am half way through my first tank being unloaded since the colt big stick cam went in. The things that have changed are the cam, dyntrac free spin, and lowered the truck slightly with different coils and suspension/steering components. Also have upsized to Toyo 285/75 AT. The cam has been a pretty good improvement so far. I am after that happy medium between performance and efficiency and this will be the truck for a long time to come. The cam has made a big difference in performance. If I could I would run compounds and would like to down size the 90s for 50s. The free spin hubs are a debate some people really like them and think they are worth the price. Others think it is a waste of money. I would not go any larger than the 285s without regearing of the 3. 73. I did run 35s on my 03 with the 3. 73 gearing but also had the stock turbo and no gauges. It is fun to drive if I want to open her up.