Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting 338 win mag vs. 300 win mag

[BIGNASTY]

QUOTE I dont have any reason for a gun like that aside from, I WANT it and LIKE it, and this is AMERICA!!







That's reason enough to me ( THE I WANT IT PART) #ad

 

[GHarman]

They used to cut and weld sections into large ring 98 Mauser actions to convert them for the H&H family of cartridges. Many moons ago. A poor mans Magnum Mauser, if you will. They definitely required a reheat treatment after that procedure. Even the locking lugs were soft on some samples examined before the cut and weld procedure. We also installed a block in the thumb slot during any extensive sporterizing procedure. Welded and reheat treated. Now you have to straighten the action!!!!!!! Heat treating a spiderweb of rails attached to receiver rings and bridges makes that action squirm like a fishing worm on a hook!!!I remember one action that we had to drive a mandrel into the bolt bore and thread an old 8mm barrel into the receiver so we could have leverage to straighten the thing out. It was a nightmare.



I have been considering building a . 338 Winchester Magnum. On a Remington 700. I am all tooled up for the . 30's. So I need a barrel, dies, reamer, pilots. Etc.

I can put a . 30/338. . 30/06 or a . 308 together right now.

However the idea of launching 300 Gr. Bergers at a very modest 2500 FPS does appeal to me! Especially at 1000 yardsOo. ! GregH

 

[BIGNASTY]

Sled you cant shoot what you cant see these will aim you in the rite direction it's worked for me. JMO Happy hunting If these are what your after I think we owe it to them. Funny I look at the picture and see RIB'S THE SIZE OF JURASSIC PARK :-laf



8-32x56 & 12-42x56



http://nightforceoptics.com/MLR2_enlargement.pdf



Gunwerks - Hand Held Ballistic Calculator



Leupold || Rangefinders



Leupold || Golden Ring 12-40x60mm HD Kit

 

[Sled Puller]

They used to cut and weld sections into large ring 98 Mauser actions to convert them for the H&H family of cartridges. Many moons ago. A poor mans Magnum Mauser, if you will. They definitely required a reheat treatment after that procedure. Even the locking lugs were soft on some samples examined before the cut and weld procedure. We also installed a block in the thumb slot during any extensive sporterizing procedure. Welded and reheat treated. Now you have to straighten the action!!!!!!! Heat treating a spiderweb of rails attached to receiver rings and bridges makes that action squirm like a fishing worm on a hook!!!I remember one action that we had to drive a mandrel into the bolt bore and thread an old 8mm barrel into the receiver so we could have leverage to straighten the thing out. It was a nightmare.

GregH

Greg, anyway I can tell by looking if the thing is twisted up? The action worked very smooth, and looked good, but how can yo utell if its heat treated properly?

 

[GHarman]

Your receiver is probably straight if the bolt does not bind up. Not knowing exactly what they did?

One thing we used to do first is, the 98 Mauser "finger wave"! Kinda like a digital prostate examination:-laf X2! Open the bolt and feel the locking lug surfaces inside the receiver. If you have a bore scope, you may be able to actually look at the lugs and see if there had been any setback. If there is still evidence that setback has occurred! Do not shoot that rifle! Take it back to the place you bought it and get your money back!!!

Assuming(not a good thing) that it is a used mild steel, case hardened receiver, albeit, modified. The next thing a trained and knowledgeable person can do is check the hardness with a center punch(on the bottom of the receiver) near the bottom locking lug. I only know a couple of the oldtime GUNSMITHS that can accurately gauge the hardness that way! The last option and probably the best is have someone with a Rockwell hardness tester actually do spot checks in the critical areas. Those receivers were case hardened. That means that the core of the structure is soft with a hard skin that can be destroyed in truing the receiver. Welding temperatures at the weld and extending out to the edge of the Heat affected Zone will destroy any original case hardening in that area.

Newer manufactured receivers can be made with 4130 or 4140 Chrome Moly steel. Those heat treating requirements will be very different. GregH

 

[GHarman]

PS, I was thinking? Uh oooohhh:-laf! If there is any motled discoloration on the blueing on the receiver, near the modifications(incorrect filler metal) OR when you take it to someone who can do the Rockwell Hardness tests on it? If there are different readings from front to back and very soft readings at the point of modification. That receiver ring was probably stuffed and packed with heat stop, welded and finished out without any reheat treat at all. Now, if that is the case? Did they true the locking lugs and the face of the receiver before installing the barrel? If so, The lugs and receiver face lost case hardening. Those old receivers were made from mild steel similar to a 1030 alloy. The case hardening allows that steel to work safely as a pressure vessel containment. You are controlling 50,000- 60,000 PSI! Any pipefitter can put a barrel on an action. The question is; Was it done correctly? Your safety is the prime consideration! Just some thoughts. Hopefully this worse case scenerio is just words on the computer! GregH

 

[HHhuntitall]

Does it have a brand and model number on it? That would tell us a lot..... and what country was it made in? There were Mauser's stamped with anything from Argentina, to Iraq, to Yugoslavia... ... not all those were '98s, but you get the idea... . Might not can see it for the scope mount on the front of the reciever. The picture below shows an old Chilean 1895 Mauser, clearly labeled on the side, and another picture of the Coat of Arms on the top of the reciever. Sometimes, these marks were removed when the rifle was sporterized, and may not be there, but if you can see them, let me know what you've got, and we'll see how old it is. And again, you may have a 98 or 99 Magnum, in which case, do you want to sell it?

 

[HHhuntitall]

And we don't want to scare you, but it's your safety we're genuinely concerned with... . the rifles above are 1895 rifles, and only rated 45k psi, I think... . Greg? They'll be limited to 7x57, 6. 5x55, etc, as they're not designed to take the pressures of the 8mm Mauser and larger cartridges. I actually had an 1891 that was squared, and the gunsmith cut through the hard facing, but didn't reharden the action. After a few shots, we noticed some cases with lines in the middle..... the last shot seperated the case, essentially stretching it in half. No one was injured, luckily, but it certainly was a "gas" when the smoke blew out the gas hole and back down the bolt!!!:-laf I was too young to know any better, and the gunsmith should have!!

 

[GHarman]

HHhuntitall, You are in the ball park on the pressure!

I've had one instance of a case head separation! The flame burnt off my eyebrows and eyelashes(behind my glasses!!!!!!). I had molten brass plated on the lenses of my glasses(Thankfully) and 1st degree burns on my face! The bolt head looked like a mushroom! Had to pound it open with a hammer! . GregH

 

[GHarman]

Sled you cant shoot what you cant see these will aim you in the rite direction it's worked for me. JMO Happy hunting If these are what your after I think we owe it to them. Funny I look at the picture and see RIB'S THE SIZE OF JURASSIC PARK :-laf



8-32x56 & 12-42x56



http://nightforceoptics.com/MLR2_enlargement.pdf



Gunwerks - Hand Held Ballistic Calculator



Leupold || Rangefinders



Leupold || Golden Ring 12-40x60mm HD Kit

BIGNASTY, Outstanding information on your ranging system. That Nightforce scope is an outstanding optic!

Did you see their new "Velocity" reticle? I have the Mil-Dot in my Nightforce and have to go back to school every time I use it:-laf! It is in the BR, scope. GregH

 

[HHhuntitall]

I grew up on the Mil-dot 3. 6in..... I learned to do math by Dad helping me use them to figure range!!! I've got some Premier Reticles with 7 Mil's down the bottom side, and then 4 on each side, and top. I can cheat them out to 1500yds on most flat shooting rifles, by zeroing at 200 for the top mil above the center. That's really only on long range plinking ventures. When I center my "large" bore rifles, I zero the crosshairs at 600, and aim low at other ranges with the NightForce NP-R2 or Mil-dots..... for hunting, anyway. Windage figures pretty easy with the cross mils... . well, figures easy, if I guess the wind velocity right... . IF!!!:-laf



For hunting, you can't really take the time to "dial it in. " At least not when you're stalking game and jump 'em. That's when practice with the mils makes for successful hunting. I know right now, the top of the first dot is dead on at 400yds on most of my stuff. Right above middle of the second dot is 500, 3/4s of the 3rd dot is 600, and bottom of 4tht dot is 700, just below 5th is 800... ... you see where this is going. Ballistics on a 142SMK in 6. 5 and 168 7mm are very similar. Push the . 277 150 Boattail gameking up towards 3100fps and it's similar..... falls off after 700 a little quicker.



I think I'm OCDX..... Obssessive Compulsive about Destroying the Xring... .

 

[BIGNASTY]

Quote HH your statement of. For hunting, you can't really take the time to "dial it in. " At least not when you're stalking game and jump 'em





Is spot on but when the game is 980yards away they dont even know your in the same state until the funny FLY BITE hits them. :-laf That is one advantage of Long Range Hunting. You have time to do the math and make scope adjustments. But one has to know what he's shootin at and that takes optics at least with my eyes. The only reason that I knew the ELK was 980 away was because my daughter was taking a look in the Bino's and said oh look. Pulled out the spotting scope to take an up close and personal look did the math and dropped it. And I think that when game is taken by surprise that it taste's better BTJMO

 

[GHarman]

The Mil-Dot is new tech for me. I just got my Nightforce BR scope back in 2006. Just dont get to shoot as much as I wish I could. You know how far I have to travel for a range session. I've been using the practice and subtension method of range estimation , hold over. Not quite as tech, but it worked:-laf!

Anyway, I want to switch the Nightforce scope over to the . 30/338 and rebed the . 30/06. That will be this winters projects. The scope swap is not that easy as I want to use a 20Minute Picatinny rail. The scope mount holes are not true to the bore of the rifle. Actually requirening 16 minutes of windage to correct the misalignment. The one piece rail will be in a bind if attached with that kind of misalignment. Hey, I'm just working with mass produced rifle receivers. GregH

 

[Sled Puller]

Now you guys are scaring me. I dont recall seeing any name on it at all.



This is the shop that built it: Stocker's Gun Shop -Guns, Ammo, Reloading Supplies, Gun Safes



I have a call into the smith, he'll be in tomorrow.



And yea, I will sell it, lol!

 

[GHarman]

Ethics!

Sled Puller, If that 'smith is ethical he would refund your money. Sorry you are in that predicament! Unfortunately you "pays yer money and takes yer chances". IMHO, Without any proof of reheat treatment, markings on the receiver including original proof marks or any of the tell tale trails provided by an ethical business person. I would consider the workmanship highly suspect. Some pictures would be highly helpful. Especially of the top of the receiver ring, left side of the receiver, the rails inside where the left lug rides as you slide the bolt back. The underside at the mag box opening in the bottom of the receiver and the face of the receiver and the bottom flat behind the recoil lug.

GregH

 

[Sled Puller]

The gun was a gift some years ago from the smith to the person I'm getting it from. After his second child, he needed to cut loose some toys. He also has a Ruger MIni 30, ranch, stainless, 8 clips. . maybe I'll swap for that.

 

[GHarman]

I hope you will tell your Friend about possible issues with that firearm. GregH

 

[GHarman]

I'll tell you a story about a commercial 98 Mauser action. A fellow worker told be he "blew up his gun". I said let me take a look at it. He brought it to work and I took it home and tore it apart. He had fired a . 30/30 cartridge in a . 264 Winchester magnum chambered barrel. OK so that . 30 caliber bullet got wedged into the barrel and the case expanded to the point of bursting! Everything, high pressure gas, came out the back, around the bolt head! It split the forend of the stock, blew the extractor into the next county, bulged the magazine box every way it could be bulged. He WAS NOT INJURED:--)!!!!!!!!!!
He asked me if I could save the gun. I said no! It did what it was designed to do, ONCE! Any work on that receiver, as it is, is not worth your health or my credibility!
I still have that receiver, in the shop. A constant reminder that profit is never worth the life and health of another person!
Could I have rebarreled that receiver and set it up to shoot again. Sure could! But I will take a cutting torch to it before that happens! GregH

 

[HHhuntitall]

Now you guys are scaring me. I dont recall seeing any name on it at all.



This is the shop that built it: Stocker's Gun Shop -Guns, Ammo, Reloading Supplies, Gun Safes



I have a call into the smith, he'll be in tomorrow.



And yea, I will sell it, lol!

I don't want to scare you, and sure as heck don't want to screw up your trade, but what's your safety worth? And the only reason I said anything at all is that I've seen a LOT of problems with the Mauser's. They can be a good, cheap gun build, but they can also kill you. If the gunsmith goes into detail about how he sent it to a reputable hardening firm after it's modifications, I'd not have any fear of it. And how many times has the guy your getting it from shot it? I'm amazed at how many gunsmiths I've run into over the years that haven't even heard of the surface hardening on Mausers. And there are many gunsmiths that just plain won't work on them.

 

[Sled Puller]

I don't want to scare you, and sure as heck don't want to screw up your trade, but what's your safety worth? .

A lot. I traded for the Mini 30. Thanks for the help!