Revisiting Propane?

[JGrosso]

Thanks guys,

I did install head studs. I don't know exactly how the propane fumigation effects the engine, but it seems that the propane helps burn the diesel faster, and that should create higher cylinder pressures. There seems to be a good increase in mialage, and power, but I have only run about 1/4 tank of propane so far. I really have not noticed much difference in EGT's. So far all my driving has been without any load. Maybe I will hook up the trailer and see how it works?



Last night raced the truck, and I used the propane at 100%, comming in a 1psi. This is the way the system ships.

I did not get much data, only two time trials before eliminations.

This is what I tried:

With the Edge in 3/3 and the propane, the trucks ET was about the sane as when I ran it without propane last year, but the miles per hour was up.

The truth is that it was just too much power for my stock transmission and turbo. During the run the tack just sat at the govenor speed of about 3,200 RPM through 1,2, and 3rd gear. When I got back I checked the Edge and it was de-fueling also, which it did not do before on level 3.

Anyhow, without a tighter torque converter, it won't help my ETs.

Driving back from the track with the propane still set at 100%, I noticed that it comes on pretty good in stop and go trafic to where you need to be careful not to run up on the car in front of you.

The overhead mialage computer goes nuts when highway driving. It was showing over 50+MPG In city, stop and go traffic really lowers the the mialage, but I think the combined drive last night still was showing close to 40MPH on the overhead. again, I don't have any real hand calculated numbers for a real comparison.

Anyhow, here is a few pics:

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

jGrosso, when you say "100%" I assume you mean you have the Bullydog system flowing at its maximum rate. What is its maximum flow in liters per minute? Does the flow rate vary so it can track in linear fashion with the amount of boost or power you are generating, or does it just sort of turn on and off at the flow rate you set it at?

Vaughn

 

[hammersley]

OK - somebody PLEASE get an actual MPG #

instead of the overhead estimate which is obviously being influenced heavily by the propane and probably not accurate..... let's try a real world test..... say 200 miles on freeway at 60... and around town... . THEN how far till you run out of propane????

 

[JGrosso]

jGrosso, when you say "100%" I assume you mean you have the Bullydog system flowing at its maximum rate. What is its maximum flow in liters per minute? Does the flow rate vary so it can track in linear fashion with the amount of boost or power you are generating, or does it just sort of turn on and off at the flow rate you set it at?



Vaughn

Sorry for the confusion, The system is the MSD/Superchips Digital Propane Injection (DPI). I am using a 15 Gallon propane tank from bullydog, but I had to change the outlet valve from the vapor to liquid.

Anyhow, the DPI system uses a computer/controller to Pulse Width Modulate (PWM) the propane regulator baised on the computers program that looks at Engine RPM and LOAD. The DPI controller has some settings that are re-programmable by hooking up a Laptop computer to the DPIs' serial port.

You can also monitor in real-time some of the inputs like RPM, LPG Pressure, Boost level, Throttle position reading, etc. There is some built in data acquation memory too, so you can do playbacks?

Anyhow, 100% means deliver the maximum propane setting for each setpoint in the DPI controller/computer, where 50% would be half the amount. I guess it would just double the off times in the pulse width modulation to the regulator?



I am working on some real mialage numbers... . It's going to take some time to go through 30+ gallon of Diesel and 15-Gallons of propane when I'm mostly comuting to-from work. At least the mialage will not just be all highway miles which tends to really favor the propane system more than stop-and-go traffic.



FWIW, On May 12, 2008, I topped off the propane tank with 6-gallons. Cost was $14. 30, or $2. 38/gallon. This was at a propane distributor. I noticed that the same day Flying J wanted $3. 10/gallon for propane

I turned off the propane system untill I got the the Fuel store.

I was lucky to find Diesel for $4. 099/gallon (I passes a few places where they wanted $4. 299/gallon) and topped off the tank (15-gallons, onlu 1/2 empty) to where the pump just tripped off automatically.



I recorded the Odometer mialage 51660, and reset all the overhead display settings, then switched the propane back on.



I believe the Odometer should be accurate. I just replaced my old tires before winter, with the exact same brand, model, and size that came with the truck new.



Once I get some baseline mialage figures unloaded, I will hook up my 24' enclosed car trailer, and see how the system works when pulling a load.



Oops, another note/update: When I first got the system it would (sometimes) throw the P0336 - crank signal code. The DPI computer taps into this signal to get the engine RPM. I installed a 470-Ohm resistor in the wire going to the DPI computer, and so far I have not seen any codes, and the DPI computer still sees the RPM signal fine.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Sounds like you have a good system, reasonably sophisticated that should (in theory) work pretty well. Looking forward to some MPG results. You're lucky to find diesel for that price, there is nothing around here for less than $4. 49.

 

[JGrosso]

Thanks all.

MSD has some information and the install instructions in PDF Form.

The Kit I have for '03 and newer dodge is Part number 4870.



Superchips Digital Propane Injection™



Shop around for price, I think list price is around $1,000, and most places are advertising $815? I paid way less (under $700. )





I found this for propane tanks after I ordered my tank, They have a great selection of tanks from 15 gallon to 57 gallon, and good prices:



SLEEGERS - Sleegers Tanks Inc. - Main Page

Some prices for their tanks:

SLEEGERS - Sleegers Tanks Inc. - US Price List



Anyhow, I also spent another $125 for the propane fuel line, fittings, bulkhead, etc for connecting the tank to the regulator.



My total cost of the system, tank and plumbing was under $1500, but I also added head studs which increased the total cost by another $400 (The place I got the head studs has raised their prices to $438 since I bought mine. )



Originally, I was hoping the system would save me $0. 03/mile fuel cost so the system would pay for itself in about 50,000 miles (not including the cost of the head studs. )

Over the next few months, I will find out... ... ... ... .

The greater the price difference between Diesel and LPG, the more likely it will be cost effective.



I don't have a remote fill kit, they are fairly expensive, around $500.



Some additional parts used in the install were 5 feet of 3/4" electrical conduit, used to route and protect the LPG line where it goes past the suspension, just inside of the inner fender liner, and some clamps that hold the hose and conduit to the body.



A Picture of the conduit in the wheel well withthe liner removed:

 

[Matt400]

Originally, I was hoping the system would save me $0. 03/mile fuel cost

Does it look like its working out that way for you?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

On my '91 truck, I had installed the PowerShot 2000 setup - primarily for power, since diesel fuel cost wasn't a factor at that point in time. Economy seemed the same, but power was increased noticeably - when towing, hills were topped at a good 10-15 MPH higher speed.



Propane usage seemed discouraged in these later trucks like my '02, because of potential head gasket issues, so I went other ways to increase power - but had no complaints with the PowerShot setup...

 

[SHobbs]

Has anyone tried simply mixing the propane in liquid form with the diesel prior to the injection pump?

This is what I have wondered. Use in liquid form instead of diesel. There are engines that do run on nothing but propane or LNG, correct? Are the two fuels different in this manner?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

This is what I have wondered. Use in liquid form instead of diesel. There are engines that do run on nothing but propane or LNG, correct? Are the two fuels different in this manner?

WELL, diesel is stable in liquid form at "normal" ambient temps - and is easily stored and transported in typical common fuel containers vented to the atmosphere - try that with propane, and watch what happens! :-laf:-laf



Propane BOILS, turning into vapor in open containers at typical "normal" temps - and is stored in CLOSED containers under considerable pressure - ever see anyone carrying a bucket or fuel can of propane open to the atmposphere - or going to a propane distributor for a "can of propane"?



Short answer - NO, no practical way to store and feed *liquid* propane in the typical diesel fuel systems such as ours...

 

[JGrosso]

The power is there with the propane, but I'm not seeing any real savings in combined fuel mialage, maybe $0. 01 per mile. On the other hand, I haven't adjusted the system to turn on at a higher boost setting. I think my next trial setting will be about 40% setting comming in at 3-PSI.

 

[Matt400]

There are engines that do run on nothing but propane or LNG, correct?

No, not really. They store LPG but run on the vapor released from it. LPG boils at -44 degrees. If it was -43 outside you could go get yourself a "can of propane" like Gary mentioned.



Sealed in a storage tank with no place to go the pressure rise suppresses and raises the boiling point just like keeping your coolant under pressure to suppress boiling.

 

[GPrivette]

Gary from tucson here. I want to put a propane kit on my truck 06 almost stock. Where should i start looking / thanks gary

 

[JPS]

Propane tanks

I have some used propane tanks for anyone interested. 2 "weiner tanks" they were called. Long narrow to fit over the wheel well in the box. Guess they could mount under if there is room. I ran propane for a few years on the farm. Just in the pickups. No tractors. It has its advantages and disadvantages. jps

 

[ENafziger]

Hmmm... any more propane stories lately? It seems nearly every place that advertises kits, speaks of 4 - 7 mpg improvement. Is this something that people aren't generally educated on? People don't want to hassle with 2 fuels? Something that is all hype and doesn't actually work?

--Eric

 

[p-Bar]

This kit looks pretty good:
DIESEL PROPANE INJECTION KIT-CUMMINS-POWERSTROKE-DURAMAX-UP TO 100 HP!--NEW | eBay

 

[ENafziger]

This kit looks pretty good:
DIESEL PROPANE INJECTION KIT-CUMMINS-POWERSTROKE-DURAMAX-UP TO 100 HP!--NEW | eBay<!-- google_ad_section_end --> <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

That's actually the one I bought! I also bought a 45 gallon DOT LPG tank off of craigslist locally. I hope to get things installed soon!

--Eric

 

[p-Bar]

That's actually the one I bought! I also bought a 45 gallon DOT LPG tank off of craigslist locally. I hope to get things installed soon!



--Eric

We are still waiting:-laf

 

[ENafziger]

We are still waiting:-laf<!-- google_ad_section_end --> <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Lol, I was still waiting on some real feed back on this forum!!! Just seems like there isn't much interest these days in LPG... or everyone's afraid to speak up!

I've got everything mounted with my setup. The only thing I lack is filling the LPG tank, and getting the electrical wiring to the solenoids done.

--Eric

 

[Bob4x4]

Since they are not smog legal in many states,I can't see them being very popular. With it being so easy to get all the fuel needed in the Cummins it never made sense. The Fords seemed to be one of the big users in the early days since they had a much harder time upping fuel delivery.

There were quite a few guys building home brew systems on CF irrc but they were real hack jobs using non approved plumbing etc... ... ... asking for safety issues.

K. I. S. S. has always been a good way of doing things. The simplicity of the mechanical diesels is what makes them popular even after they have passed their normal usefull life span