Hello all. . Looking for advise on inframe kits for an ism cummins. . I will be going cummins recon on the head, due to lack of a good machine shop man in my area now. . I would like to hear some feedback from some who have used kit's by interstate mcbee or kits from clevite, regardless of the brand engine used on. [cat,cummins,detroit,etc] I dont want to go cheap, but at the same time the $3600. 00 kit from cummins is a little hard to swallow now since i recently stuck $3000. 00 in injectors on this engine about 3 months back. . thanks...
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cummins ism overhaul
- Thread starter JUeckert
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NIsaacs
TDR MEMBER
You might check AGKITS. COM, they handle several popular brands of engine rebuild kits for trucks and tractors. The ISM-11 kit is Federal-Mogul for $1728. They offer a two year warranty on the kit, no milage or hour limit.
I recently ordered an in-frame kit for a Ford 3-cylinder industrial diesel tractor, however I was only able to use the gasket set, mains and rod bearings. The pistons were the wrong deck height. They tried real hard to come up with them but could not. I had to order them from Ford/New Holland at more than double the price.
When I returned the pistons, they sent out a refund the same day they received them. As far as quality of product, I really can't say yet as this was my first time with this company. The salesman I dealt with was Justyn, very knowledgable and easy to work with. I would use them again in a heart beat.
Nick
I recently ordered an in-frame kit for a Ford 3-cylinder industrial diesel tractor, however I was only able to use the gasket set, mains and rod bearings. The pistons were the wrong deck height. They tried real hard to come up with them but could not. I had to order them from Ford/New Holland at more than double the price.
When I returned the pistons, they sent out a refund the same day they received them. As far as quality of product, I really can't say yet as this was my first time with this company. The salesman I dealt with was Justyn, very knowledgable and easy to work with. I would use them again in a heart beat.
Nick
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mwilson
TDR MEMBER
We have several customers over the years try various aftermarket parts with dismal results if the truck has a rugged duty cycle especially in a CAT engine.
However, I think that Clevite makes the pistons for Cummins as it is.
Off the record, if the ISM isn't being worked to death and is close to home all the time I would go with the Clevite.
Cummins' prices for parts are getting high, we have done a few ISX motors over the last few months and an overhaul with turbo is just about double the price of a 60 Series Detroit overhaul.
Mike.
We have several customers over the years try various aftermarket parts with dismal results if the truck has a rugged duty cycle especially in a CAT engine.
However, I think that Clevite makes the pistons for Cummins as it is.
Off the record, if the ISM isn't being worked to death and is close to home all the time I would go with the Clevite.
Cummins' prices for parts are getting high, we have done a few ISX motors over the last few months and an overhaul with turbo is just about double the price of a 60 Series Detroit overhaul.
Mike.
Yes, I agree with your comments about CAT and Clevite as long as the truck remains local. I too have heard complaints about a Cummins in frame overhaul, vs. Detroit 60-series.
Bill
As far as engine kits it seems like you usually get what you pay for.
Why does the current engine need an overhaul?
Mwilson: The ISX seems to be a very costly engine to keep on the road. Seems like those things can swallow a timing or metering actuator about every six months. Place where the wife works has one that needs a cam. Fleet pricing on the cam was north of $3500.
Why does the current engine need an overhaul?
Mwilson: The ISX seems to be a very costly engine to keep on the road. Seems like those things can swallow a timing or metering actuator about every six months. Place where the wife works has one that needs a cam. Fleet pricing on the cam was north of $3500.
mwilson
TDR MEMBER
I can't imagine owning one after the warranty runs out, that will affect the selling price of the truck to 2nd and 3rd tier buyers.
Word will get out in regards to the ISX Cummins Parts Pricing, they (Cummins) should be addressing it right now as it will be a hard stigma to get rid of.
A lot of times the smarter potential truck shoppers will never mind the shiny chrome but instead ask the parts dept. which motor they should look for in a used truck.
We always steer them to the Non-EGR Series 60, it is the cheapest to overhaul and a pretty tough engine with a simple fuel system.
It may go up a hill a gear lower than a big CAT or Cummins but will continue to climb that hill day after day for a long time... .....
Mike.
I can't imagine owning one after the warranty runs out, that will affect the selling price of the truck to 2nd and 3rd tier buyers.
Word will get out in regards to the ISX Cummins Parts Pricing, they (Cummins) should be addressing it right now as it will be a hard stigma to get rid of.
A lot of times the smarter potential truck shoppers will never mind the shiny chrome but instead ask the parts dept. which motor they should look for in a used truck.
We always steer them to the Non-EGR Series 60, it is the cheapest to overhaul and a pretty tough engine with a simple fuel system.
It may go up a hill a gear lower than a big CAT or Cummins but will continue to climb that hill day after day for a long time... .....
Mike.
Mike we had A customer with a very nice Pete with an ISX reman he put in at cummins. It never ran the same way twice. It had an intermittent stumble that was never diagnosed despite efforts by two certified cummins shops and myself.
He sold it and had enough left over to buy a KW with a sleeper and had money left for a inframe of the Cat that is getting two mpg better (all beit a bit tired)
Sorry for the derail! Those M11's are about as tough as nails.
We always steer them to the Non-EGR Series 60, it is the cheapest to overhaul and a pretty tough engine with a simple fuel system.
It may go up a hill a gear lower than a big CAT or Cummins but will continue to climb that hill day after day for a long time... .....
Mike.
Yep, and more than likely burn less fuel...
Bill
NIsaacs
TDR MEMBER
Harvey, the 60 series is not old, as in the old two stroke. It is a current 4-stroke production engine in 13, 15 and 16 liters. Detroit and Freightliner are associated with the Mercedes MBE 900 and MBE 4000 series engines. The MBE 900 is a 7. 2 liter medium duty engine, however it is a little low on power versus the 6. 7 Cummins. I think it is only rated about 230 hp/620 tq. the 4000 series is a big truck engine.
mwilson can help us with this.
Nick
mwilson can help us with this.
Nick
Daimler owes Detroit Diesel. Here's History from their website:
1937
GM Diesel is founded as a new division; first Series 71 engines built
1948
GM Diesel begins production of Series 110 engines
1950-1957
GM Diesel introduces Series 51, Series 53 engines and V71 model engines
1967
Detroit Diesel introduces Series 149 engines; Detroit Diesel produces its one-millionth engine
1970
Detroit Diesel Allison Division (DDA) is formed by the merger of the Detroit Diesel Engine and Allison Divisions
1975-1976
DDA begins production of Series 92 engines; DDA produces its two-millionth engine
1980
Development begins on the Series 60 engine
1987
Series 60 is introduced - first fully electronic engine, completely changing the paradigms of the engine industry
1988
Penske Corporation and General Motors form a joint venture company Detroit Diesel Corporation (DDC)
1992-1993
Series 60 becomes the most popular heavy-duty truck engine in North America; DDC becomes a public company, 43% public, 37% Penske, 20% Daimler
1999
Detroit Diesel produces its four-millionth engine
2000
DaimlerChrysler buys 100% of DDC Shares and DaimlerChrysler Powersystems is formed: Combines DDC, MTU and Mercedes-Benz
2002
Detroit Diesel adds the MBE 900 and MBE 4000 to its engine offerings
2005
Detroit Diesel announces a Redford Renaissance project, an investment of over $300 million in the DD facility
2007
Detroit Diesel begins production of the EPA 2007-certified version of the Series 60; Detroit Diesel launches the all new world engine DD15
2009
Detroit Diesel produces the 1,000,000th Series 60 engine; Detroit Diesel launches the DD13 engine
2010
Detroit Diesel launches EPA 2010 engine family including the DD13, DD15 and DD16 equipped with BlueTec (SCR) technology.
Matter of fact i called those folks last tuesday, seem the kit was fp brand[federal]. The price actually spooked me, but i havent written them off yet. . Your piston experience is what concerns me, knew a guy that had a bearing fit issue on a 5. 9 with after market[ one main thrust,bearing]. He went to cummins for that one bearing, problem solved. .
Thank you. That's excellent.
The truck/engine has a bit over 800k on it, with no know internal repairs. . Lesson learned on this one, it was a retired pepsi truck, so i figured it was not worked hard. . The first red flag was the knocking from the bad injector. . The second was from the excess blowby, third the 3 min idle timer it had on it[now removed]. I really felt with hired help the 3 min timer was a bad idea for engine warm up/cool downs. . The pepsi fleet manager was tight lipped about the truck, so my info on it was limited. . I did ask directly if getting about another 5k out of it before an inframe was doable . . Sure he say's, just get the injectors fixed. . Well, make a long story short, empty it just has blowby and a few oil drips here and there. . Load it and the oil blowing is so bad it will paint the back of the truck cab in less then 10 miles. . I figure cracked piston/scored cylinder. .
The + side, even after an inframe, i will be ok on the investment if i do the work myself. .
mwilson
TDR MEMBER
That is accurate.
I want to add to it a little,
The Daimler group is hell bent for leather to create a proprietary truck.
Trucks have been built with vendor components (with the exception of Mack and IH years back, but even they folded and offered other components to satisfy big truck and rental fleets) for an eternity, it is one of the reasons that finding good Heavy Duty People is next to impossible. There are so many variations in specs that it boggles the mind.
We have to live and breathe this stuff in order to support it.
Trailers are still out way there, many times we crawl under the trailer to identify brake valves, suspensions, etc. There are just too many options.
Back to Daimler. They have a vision of a truck with all Daimler owned components. In the medium duty line they succeeded with the MBE900 engine, a six-speed manual gearbox and an Alliance rear axle. Offered the powertrain with a Mega-discount and extended warranty so they got some out and on the road.
Class 8 trucks are not there quite yet.
Detroit Diesel was purchased with the above mentioned vision of Daimler in mind.
Penske had already gone in and cleaned house at the Detroit Diesel engine plant in 1987. Too many people were not doing their jobs, there was no accountability for sloppy assembly and it was driving the reputation of the then current 71 and 92 series right into the ground.
He saw the need for the SERIES 60 which was on the drawing board at that time and got some produced and into some test fleet trucks. The fleets had strict orders to report any failures to Detroit, who in turn would ship out another engine. The customer was to simply swap engines and return the failed unit to Detroit. That way the engineers had un-molested evidence to help identify failed parts.
It worked well and helped pioneer an engine with the above mentioned production run of 1,000,000 plus units. They are still being assembled by hand for the Mexican and marine markets up until next year.
Now the emissions standards have sent the SERIES 60 to the grave, it simply can't handle the EGR and related hang on crap to be clean enough.
The DD series engines were designed from the start to be clean enough to handle the current and upcoming emissions laws with relative ease.
The DD15 was first out of the gate, then the DD16, now there is a DD13 available.
They are trying to get a C7 size out, that should hit the road in a couple of years.
That indicates to me that the current Mid-Size Cummins offerings in the Freightliner trucks is a short term thing. This is one of the issues that continues to create tension between Daimler and Cummins.
The MBE900 and MBE4000 series were an attempt to inject some German technology into the US marketplace, the 900 series were not too bad but you could not give me a 4000 series. They are now history again due to emissions.
The DD15, DD16 and DD13 series have been quite reliable so far, time will tell. They are based on a global platform so if they will stay together you will see them in everything as time goes on.
Mike.
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mwilson
TDR MEMBER
I assume this was one of the single axle tractors that Pepsi runs, not a beverage body truck.
I know that the Pepsi fleet trucks up here don't get much love and attention until it is a necessity and I'm not slamming them for that.
They just prefer to get all a unit has to give instead of performing preventative maintenance.
I see fleets do it either way and be profitable.
With an overhaul it should make you a good truck. They are never overloaded which makes a huge difference in the life span of a truck.
Mike.
Last edited:
That is accurate.
I want to add to it a little,
The Daimler group is hell bent for leather to create a proprietary truck.
Trucks have been built with vendor components (with the exception of Mack and IH years back, but even they folded and offered other components to satisfy big truck and rental fleets) for an eternity, it is one of the reasons that finding good Heavy Duty People is next to impossible. There are so many variations in specs that it boggles the mind.
We have to live and breathe this stuff in order to support it.
Trailers are still out way there, many times we crawl under the trailer to identify brake valves, suspensions, etc. There are just too many options.
Back to Daimler. They have a vision of a truck with all Daimler owned components. In the medium duty line they succeeded with the MBE900 engine, a six-speed manual gearbox and an Alliance rear axle. Offered the powertrain with a Mega-discount and extended warranty so they got some out and on the road.
Class 8 trucks are not there quite yet.
Detroit Diesel was purchased with the above mentioned vision of Daimler in mind.
Penske had already gone in and cleaned house at the Detroit Diesel engine plant in 1987. Too many people were not doing their jobs, there was no accountability for sloppy assembly and it was driving the reputation of the then current 71 and 92 series right into the ground.
He saw the need for the SERIES 60 which was on the drawing board at that time and got some produced and into some test fleet trucks. The fleets had strict orders to report any failures to Detroit, who in turn would ship out another engine. The customer was to simply swap engines and return the failed unit to Detroit. That way the engineers had un-molested evidence to help identify failed parts.
It worked well and helped pioneer an engine with the above mentioned production run of 1,000,000 plus units. They are still being assembled by hand for the Mexican and marine markets up until next year.
Now the emissions standards have sent the SERIES 60 to the grave, it simply can't handle the EGR and related hang on crap to be clean enough.
The DD series engines were designed from the start to be clean enough to handle the current and upcoming emissions laws with relative ease.
The DD15 was first out of the gate, now there is a DD13 available.
They are trying to get a C7 size out, that should hit the road in a couple of years.
That indicates to me that the current Mid-Size Cummins offerings in the Freightliner trucks is a short term thing. This is one of the issues that continues to create tension between Daimler and Cummins.
The MBE900 and MBE4000 series were an attempt to inject some German technology into the US marketplace, the 900 were not too bad but you could not give me a 4000 series. They are now history again due to emissions.
The DD15 and DD13 series have been quite reliable so far, time will tell. They are based on a global platform so if they will stay together you will see them in everything as time goes on.
Mike.
Mike, that is a very accurate analysis of the Detroit aquisition by Daimler. I had been thinking about an answer which was along the same line, but you beat me to it.
Bill
Here are a few more history tid bits. The original Detroit Diesel was designed by Charles Kettering, along with the EMD locomotive engine which is still produced today. He is also responsible for the electric starter and the battery-points-coil ignition system.
Mercedes Benz is the largest commercial vehicle manufacturer in the world. In the '70's they had a presence in the MD and HD market in this country, but it didn't last long.
Mercedes Benz is the largest commercial vehicle manufacturer in the world. In the '70's they had a presence in the MD and HD market in this country, but it didn't last long.
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