Dot experts

[brods]

Lets pretend Bob occasionally uses his personal truck and trailer to deliver equipment or pick up parts for the small businesses he’s worked for. Bob has done this over the years as a favor and gets no extra compensation other than what he normally gets paid and fuel. Bob’s vehicle is 9,000 GVW non-commercial plates and trailer is 9,900 GVW. The trips would occur less than a dozen times a year and roughly 50% of the time the deliveries would be out of state. It appears Bob would not need a CDL. What would Bob need to cover his assets?

 

[mwilson]

Bob should have a Bill Of Sale proving he owns the material on the trailer to be not for hire. "Bob" has a right to haul his own stuff.



If Bob does not have such a document it could be a problem.....



The words "Not for hire" on Bob's truck might not be such a bad idea either... ...



Let's also pretend that someone named Mike is only familiar with similar stunts in his area of the world, Bob's area and experience may differ... .....



Mike.

 

[dclassens]

NICE Gents!!!! you guys made my day by giving me a good laugh. :-laf :-laf

 

[NIsaacs]

Humm... Bob?... . What does your state say? It's been my experience that transportation laws, federal, state and local are very complex and that if you ask a DOT, MVD, State Police or local police a question, you will get four different answers. It would also be safe to say that anyone with a pickup and trailer has hauled for pay and rarely get stopped or ticketed. I will also say that "Bob" thinks he needs a CDL or he would not have asked the question. That is also the first item a cop will ask for, so it is a high profile document.



If you haul under the radar and stay low profile you might not ever get stopped. Use good equipment, haul safe/secure loads and drive responsibly. Always comply as much as possible and even go overboard if possible, especially if it is cheap, easy to do or mandatory. It has also been my experiance, once I leave my state of registration the other states require less of me.



I am sure I didn't answer your question, but a DOT expert might not exist, however if encountered they will enforce the law as they interpret it.



Nick

 

[AMcCormick]

Technically if some else is paying for the fuel I think that is still considered being "compensated". I was asked this by a US customs official while border crossing with a load. I was doing a run for a non profit group that I donated my time and resources. Told him as much and he then asked who is paying for the fuel.

 

[HBarlow]

Lets pretend Bob occasionally uses his personal truck and trailer to deliver equipment or pick up parts for the small businesses he's worked for. Bob has done this over the years as a favor and gets no extra compensation other than what he normally gets paid and fuel. Bob's vehicle is 9,000 GVW non-commercial plates and trailer is 9,900 GVW. The trips would occur less than a dozen times a year and roughly 50% of the time the deliveries would be out of state. It appears Bob would not need a CDL. What would Bob need to cover his assets?

"Bob" probably doesn't need a CDL. A CDL is only required if the rated or actual combined weight of his truck and trailer exceed 26,000 lbs. This statement means if the total of truck GVWR printed on the door post tag and the GVWR tag on the trailer adds up to 26,000 pounds or more or across the scales his weight is 26,000 pounds or more he is required to have a CDL.

Assuming he doesn't require a CDL he IS engaged in commercial hauling and is a commercial driver in the eyes of the law. He IS required to have DOT registration and numbers displayed on the doors of his truck, have a commercial liability insurance policy in the amount of $1 million dollars, maintain a log book when operating outside a 150 mile radius from his home terminal and operate within prescribed DOT driving hours rules, have a fire extinguisher mounted in his truck, have a current commercial vehicle inspection decal on his windshield and on the trailer, and have a current medical card which requires a physical and vision exam every two years. Any items in the bed of his truck or on his trailer must be properly secured and "Bob" is required to have a proper bill of lading for each load. "Bob" must stop at all scales to be weighed and have his documents checked. A commercial driver is required to submit to random urinalysis testing also and be able to prove it. He cannots sleep in his truck unless it has a DOT approved sleeper compartment. I may have forgotten something but believe that covers it.

All of the information I have provided is common knowledge among DOT enforcement officers and scale operators in all the states. Those folks deal with this every day. It is the way they make their living. To assume you can fool them is to fool only yourself. Old games like a phony bill of sale won't fly. That is called "buy and sell" in the enforcement community and doesn't fool anyone.

Yes, it is true that most guys who own a light truck and trailer have probably hauled something for a friend and probably even been compensated for it in some way. Most have gotten away with it.

Lots of misinformation floats around with the intent of allowing folks to pretend they are legal. It won't fly if "Bob" gets pulled over and asked for his registration, insurance, medical card, bill of lading and has his rig inspected. I can spot a commercial hauler 1/2 mile away and I'm not a law enforcement officer. DOT officers recognize them as well or better than I do.

 

[ata]

Bob gets no extra compensation other than what he normally gets paid and fuel.

Right there they have you and the part where you say Bob hauls out of state. If Bob gets caught he's looking a fines he probably can not pay.

 

[GaryOwen]

Here's a link for more info on what is required.



Hauling for hire...

 

[Okie-Go]

Therefore he needs

He will not need a cdl because he is under 26k. He does need the log book, bill of lading with weight of goods carried. Where he picked it up at and where it is going. If he stays in his state he needs a dot # for his state. Out of state he will need a usdot#. He is basically somewhat leasing his truck out so he needs a lease agreement signed by who he is doing this favor for and a copy to keep in is truck. He does need the dot medical card and insurance to cover said load. He will also be required to keep track of his miles and get registered with ifta, have a ucr document, cab card, fire ext. , and triangles. He will also need a registered dba in his home county. Bob is just asking for trouble by doing this. If he is in an accident he will be in lot's of trouble. I know for a fact what I am talking about.

Yes, I have my own carrier authority and licensed to run in all of the lower 48 states. I have a txdot#. usdot#,and a mc#.

He is just asking for trouble.

Okie

 

[S.Morris]

Up here anyway, Bob would also require a safety inspection sticker on the trailer and the truck. If the trailer was to weigh over 10000lbs then he would need a CDL. Truck must be licensed for the combined weight of the unit loaded.



If Bob gets stopped by DOT, it could cost him many times what he is making for the favour, if the officer throws the book at him

 

[brods]

Bob does not want to haul for profit and (hypothetically of course) would have done this over the years to save time and ensure the safe delivery of the equipment rather than subject it to the rough handling awkward sized freight receives when shipped via common carrier. As for the workaround, Bob is no salesman and would have a tough time trying to convince the man of anything other than the truth, so claiming 12 foot long 100 horse power pumps are for his swimming pool or for his basement sump is out of the question, lol.



Apparently Bob is a dumbass, but he can learn. I will pass along that he should no longer consider doing favors with his trailer. The end customer will just have to pay the costs of extra crating as well as the common carrier shipping charges and just deal with any damage from shipping. So many wasted trees.



So now we've established it is a bad idea for Bob to haul anything related to business on his trailer, but what about just his truck? Since it is under 10K can he move equipment for his employer as long as he stays within his GVWR? Often Bob has to be on site for the installation so it seems silly to ship an item and for Bob to drive out to meet it when he could simply bring it with him. Where should Bob draw the line?

 

[mwilson]

I thought about this some more last night and I am not even outlaw enough to pass off moving a big pump as my own.



If I tried I would carefully explain that there was a huge sewage issue up the road (nobody likes having raw sewage on the loose... ) and I am bringing this pump to the sanitary district as a favor from another sanitary district.



If they held me at the weigh station I would keep looking up the road, they would ask what I was looking at. I'd say you'll see if I don't get this pump up there. You got any tall rubber boots with you????



Seriously, the biggest risk for Bob aside from the law bending would be an accident and Bob's insurance company flipping out, possibly refusing to pay.



I understand Bob's concerns about Common Carrier freight damage, I deal with it every day.



Would it perhaps be better if Bob's company rented a truck from Ryder or the equivalent and had Bob drive it?? Then Bob's arse is covered for any disaster and would be hauling the companies property??? Bob should still have the DOT physical and do up a log book, etc. but would ge getting the same end result legally. Plus Bob is there to do the install by default.



One freight claim with the resulting lost time, ordering a replacement, etc. could pay the truck rental, hands down.



JMHO.



Mike.

 

[HBarlow]

All the same rules apply but a pickup w/o trailer would be less likely to be noticed and stopped for inspection.

If the load is visible above the bed and is equipment or machinery obviously not personal property it could attract the attention of a DOT officer and lead to an inspection, particularly if crossing state lines.

Several years ago congress abolished the old Single State Registration system and failed to replace it with an alternative. Without getting into the details this closed a revenue stream to states leaving them seeking other sources of highway revenue. Increased enforcement for fines and greater interest in small commercial haulers resulted so the chance of being noticed and inspected are probably greater now than they once were.

The proper way for a small business to transport small freight quickly is with their own company owned truck with commercial insurance and DOT registration numbers properly displayed, commercial inspection sticker, fire extinguisher, etc. One or more drivers could learn DOT rules, get medical cards, keep a log book, and make the hauls properly. Complying with the law is not difficult. It is actually pretty easy if someone takes the time to learn the rules. Knowing you are legal and have nothing to fear from enforcement officers is comforting.

 

[Moe]

The first thing I noticed was the non com tags. That means NO hauling anything for hire. Moe

 

[JMetzger]

Harvey, just curious when pulling RV's did you fall under DOT & have to have CDL?

 

[EGroeneveld]

All the same rules apply but a pickup w/o trailer would be less likely to be noticed and stopped for inspection.



If the load is visible above the bed and is equipment or machinery obviously not personal property it could attract the attention of a DOT officer and lead to an inspection, particularly if crossing state lines.



Several years ago congress abolished the old Single State Registration system and failed to replace it with an alternative. Without getting into the details this closed a revenue stream to states leaving them seeking other sources of highway revenue. Increased enforcement for fines and greater interest in small commercial haulers resulted so the chance of being noticed and inspected are probably greater now than they once were.



The proper way for a small business to transport small freight quickly is with their own company owned truck with commercial insurance and DOT registration numbers properly displayed, commercial inspection sticker, fire extinguisher, etc. One or more drivers could learn DOT rules, get medical cards, keep a log book, and make the hauls properly. Complying with the law is not difficult. It is actually pretty easy if someone takes the time to learn the rules. Knowing you are legal and have nothing to fear from enforcement officers is comforting.

Now this is for OREGON. I'm a CPA and I've had construction industry clients put through the ringer with these rules. Seems like one a year. I've warned them all several times for years and years. They all seem to ignore the rules for years then a driver gets pulled over by a ODOT enforcement officer. And its always the dumb driver. ODOT officer learns its a company truck and the driver is clueless about the rules. Next day ODOT is at the company shops doing a full inspection of all equipment, asking about log books, driver licenses, insurance, 'T' Plates, Perm plated trailers, CDL's etc... Usually the company ends up paying for all the proper 'T' plates and 'Perm' plated trailers for the current and prior years they can go back to. Plus the company usually gets hit with a $ 5,000 FINE. I had a small Construction company client nailed for a F450 type truck hauling a 10K trailer plus the trailer was overweight with a bobcat on it. It ended up being a $ 30K bill by time ODOT was done with all the vehicles, trailers and fines.



A 'T' Plated Pickup is required licensed for up to 26,000 pounds is $ 764/year. It is required if the trailer is rated for more then 8,000 pounds. Even I personally pay this license fee because I have a 100% personal use dump trailer rated at 14k and an 100% personal use enclosed trailer rated at 10K.



The best practice is for a small company to buy a company truck (and trailer if needed) and make two or three employees (plus a manager/owner) know all the rules and being properly licensed and insured for whatever weight you might need to be hauling.

 

[d6c]

I'm also from Oregon..... and agree 100% with the above post..... One thing to consider is the dumb*** dmv employee's registering vehicles improperly... one Clatskanie logger has his F550 shop truck on the road with car-plates... which are limited to 10k... and he is commercial all day long.

 

[brods]

All the same rules apply but a pickup w/o trailer would be less likely to be noticed and stopped for inspection.



If the load is visible above the bed and is equipment or machinery obviously not personal property it could attract the attention of a DOT officer and lead to an inspection, particularly if crossing state lines.

Now this is where Bob gets lost. His state goes by the FMCSA definition which appears to not regulate vehicles under 10K unless they carry passengers or haz mat substances.

Are there other sections which cover vehicles under 10k?



Definitions. - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or . .

 

[EDankievitch]

Back when I had my business I did everything by the book. It was one of the things that helped put me out of business. I moved boats overland, I had to have overwith permits when I was oversize and the insurance to protect myself and others. I had $1,000,000 cargo and liability on my rig at all times. My competition they would run with out all of the above. Many times I was underbid on a job to Fla by some one without insurance or proper papers. I was charging $1. 75-$2. 00 a mile for a boat up to 35' in length as long as it was under 9' beam. I'd end up loosing the job to someone that would do it for $0. 75 a mile. I was stopped many times always had my log up to date and my rig in proper working order. That toll plaza at the Del Maryland border has a axle scale in the toll lane. If it counts more than 3 axles your flagged in for full vehicle scale and or inspection. Last thing you want to do is give them an attitude, if you do they find something wrong. In answer to your question you can fly under the radar but sooner or later you will get caught. And when you do saying that you didn't know just makes the fine grow faster... .

 

[HBarlow]

Now this is where Bob gets lost. His state goes by the FMCSA definition which appears to not regulate vehicles under 10K unless they carry passengers or haz mat substances.
Are there other sections which cover vehicles under 10k?

Definitions. - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

No, I don't think so but any dually pickup exceeds 10k and any Class III SRW willl have a GVWR of 9,900 lbs. , perhaps more with the later models, and will probably exceed that with much of a load or a trailer.