2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission K & N Strikes again!

[HHhuntitall]

Piston walls are gone on this baby! #1 broke a ring, you can guess what happened after that. I gotta get the valves out, too. The guides are GONE!! It'd blow oil out of the dipstick tube whenever the valves would turn to the right spot!!

 

[DAN V]

that sucks

I do not run K&N in any of my rigs. I only ran K&N once and did not see any improvement. I either run stock or go to BHAF. If I go BHAF I usually change out once a year.

 

[Regcabguy]

Send a shot of the carnage to K&N and see if they'll honor their million mile warranty.

 

[BLNRAY]

how about oil and filter,how often do you change. driving condition,mileage on engine.

i have 386,000mi most of it with K&N filters.

 

[DavidC]

It could be K&N or maybe not. The last company I worked for loved Ford diesels and would do oil analysis at every change. Multiple times I was summoned to the truck shop because the oil results would show dusting. The mechanics would spend hours trying to find the leaks. Some times it would be the seal around the air cleaner or the intake tube from the air cleaner to the intake or another area after the air filter. I am sure K&N would probably want undeniable proof the filter was at fault and another leak could not be found and verified. I personally put synthetic grease around the air filter seal to make sure dirt does not find it's way around the filter. It makes me feel better anyway. I guess a sure way to avoid this problem is thru oil analysis to try to pin point where the problem lies.



Dave

 

[HHhuntitall]

This truck has been mostly serviced by me, with 208k on the clock, IIRC. The oil usually goes around 5-6k. The air filter has been leaking dust through the filter for quite some time. I returned the first one at 104k, after it had been in there around 3k miles. I told the owner he needed to go another route. Insisted on keeping the filter. I showed him the smeared grease inside the intake housing where the really small dust was catching. Owner complained, K&N sent another one, it did the same thing brand new. Not unfamiliar with leaks around the second-rate plastic Dodge air housing, I siliconed the filter into the upper housing to make sure there were no leaks, resiliconing it when I serviced it. Still really fine dust coming through, directly above filter, so it's not the boot leaking..... Not my truck, I'm only the advisor/mechanic. The truck has been getting 22-24mpg consistenly empty, so the owner attributed it to the filter..... perhaps, but now look where we are. All the money saved on fuel is gone, plus a lot more. This is nowhere near the first one I've seen destroyed by a K&N, and undoubtedly will not be the last. Will K&N do anything about it? I don't know, it's the owner's problem, really. I told him I didn't approve. It's good money for me. Shame to see it happen to a nice truck, though. :{

 

[NIsaacs]

I don't think that damage is air filter related although it probably contributed. How about some history on the truck? Any mods, what year is it? That piston was damaged by more issues than just dirt. Piston cooling nozzle, advanced timing or heat come to mind. Also valve guides control oil use but not really blowby, thats piston/cylinder damage related. What ever the cause was, it's ready for some help



Nick

 

[HHhuntitall]

Truck is all stock. No programmers, ever. It got some 40hp injectors about two years ago from DPPI. Aftercooling nozzles were all intact, no clogs, all look good except #1, which has some damage on the top side from blowby, but still not clogged or broken. Burn patterns in the pistons look perfect, no injector issues. As for it being overheated, it's possible, I don't drive it. None of the other pistons have any issues, and usually it's #6 that overheats first.



The blowby I referred to on the guides was from boost. When it builds boost, it's blowing air past the guides and bonnets, pressurizing the crankcase excessively. It only does it at certain times, and looking at the valve stems, there is some major scarring and wear on all the intake valves..... I have no doubts it's from foreign particles being introduced to the intake side of the engine, as evidenced by the turbo and intercooler. There are no holes in the intake boot, and as the grease evidented in the air filter housing, the filter wasn't doing it's job. This isn't the first one I've seen.



K&N filters may be fine for up and down the highway, and they increase airflow, which is a good thing. But this truck has been used as a work and farm truck, mostly running on dirt roads and in fields. Not a good combination. I thought someone else would find it useful and informative to see what extended use would do. Granted, this is accelerated from it's harsh environment, but it will still happen eventually.



It certainly does need some help. Hopefully, it'll be up and running tonight.

 

[Hootguy]

I had dirt going through my K&N years ago,,,as soon as i saw it,,i threw it in the garbage,,and went back to a regukar filter changed regurlarly,,,,all my friends who had K&N's in their vehicules ditched them years ago,,,they are garbage if you ask me,,,they'd be good in an enviroment that has no dust,,but then,,whats the point,,,LOL.

 

[dresslered]

I find it a bit hard to believe that is was caused by the K&N as well. That being said, I sure have heard plenty of contaminant stories caused by a K&N's. Not sure why so many people use these filters... especially when horsepower wasn't a main goal?

 

[ewcmr2]

None of the other pistons have any issues, and usually it's #6 that overheats first.

Confused... How does an air filter direct dirty air to one cylinder and clean air to the rest?



I could possibly see 3&4 getting more dust due to a more direct path from the intake manifold.

 

[AEdelheit]

Im a believer in dry filters for best filtration, Though K&N should be great, I mean there sold at Wal Mart, only the best

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Cummins has specifically said not to use K&N filters. . . will see if I can dig that up.

I discovered in 2000 what a poor filter they are, here's the thread I started
https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45490&highlight=dirt

and another
https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52986&highlight=dirt

 

[morbius]

Like anything out there, filter used should be spec'd for the duty at hand. Does not matter where its sold, how its sold, matters is how its used.



I have run K&N over 1,000,000 miles with no issues at all on a variety of engines over the highways with proper maintenance. K&N and others state that if there filters are used in a very dusty / dirty area, they will have to serviced at a much greater frequency. If you do not maintain things, then expect problems.



When our trucks went from highway only usage to be used on and crossing ranch roads, we switched from K&N to AFE Pro-GUARD 7, more filtration needed. Our engines and trucks are covered in a ton of dust and dirt, intake are spotless with still good positive air flow. You can see the difference, one side of the filter is black, the other is spotless, no dusting inside the intake.



Got to pick your stuff based on how you are going to use it. If you are unsure, then stick with OEM and do not blame the manufacturers of performance add ons. Even then, OEM is not free from lack of maintenance, paper filters have to be serviced and checked depending on its usage.



I think this post would be more appropriate if titled something along the lines of, possible ill effects of using the wrong materials in a given environment.

 

[AEdelheit]

A filter should be able to effectively filter dirt regardless of environment , assuming the K&N was properly serviced then it should be able to run the Baja 1000, I don't think it could. sounds to me like you just said AFE is a far Better filter, or did I missundetstand you?

 

[morbius]

AFE at the time I purchased and how we wanted to use it, it was better with 7 ply and still good ample flow for heavy duty usage at higher power.



I was washing our K&N at very short intervals because the dirt was drying out the filters very quickly which is not good. Like I mentioned, K&N has warnings about very dirty/dusty usage and additional maintenance requirements, which we followed. K&N has released a 7 ply for heavy duty usage, but when you have an investment in AFE filters (not cheap) you want to get the service life of them unless they can cause problems. I did contacted K&N when we need additional filtration without restrictions and they where not there yet to release. On engines not subjected to the dirty ranch roads and farm fields, I still use our K&Ns and very pleased (over 30 years of usage).



Yes there are filters designed so that they can flow extremely well and survive the Dakar Rally, however, no one is going to pay the costs for the filter. People want cheap filters and car manufactures have no incentives to design in a performance filter. Car manufactures are going to look at what is least risk, highest profit margin for marginal usage. It does not add up and you end up with a spectrum of filters based on services like everything else.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Like anything out there, filter used should be spec'd for the duty at hand. Does not matter where its sold, how its sold, matters is how its used.



I think this post would be more appropriate if titled something along the lines of, possible ill effects of using the wrong materials in a given environment.

... and there's lots of truth to this. Perhaps the title is a bit harsh. I just don't understand why someone would run something that would destroy their engine.....



As for the other pistons, they are dusted, the rings are wore excessively, but luckily, they didn't come apart or gall the cylinder wall and cause damage to the piston. I didn't mention much about the rings... . Yes, an oil anaylysis would have supported my poor opinion of the K&N, I'm sure, but when the owner won't listen to me to begin with, what's the point? This post was really just a vent and sharing of a bad experience... ... I had no intentions of causing offense to anyone. I thought it was interesting, as well..... and perhaps the title reflects my frustrations... . Which I have no real reason to be complaining, I'm making money, either way... . I think perhaps because it was such a nice truck, it's frustrating to see a problem that could have been avoided so easily, if the owner had just listened..... perhaps I'm upset that my advice went unheeded, and now it's costing the guy more money. As much fun as it is to spend other people's money, I don't make a habit of it.



Really, though, when was the last time you saw a stock truck with a galled piston with less than 500k?

 

[SRay]

HHhuntitall: is that a 24 v piston, not common rail? Up here in Canada, my dodge mechanic buddy rebuilds one 2004. 5-2007 engines a week. A lot have ring breakage due to cylinders wearing out near the top and one of the rings catch the ridge created by the other. He figured excessive idling is more the problem and the way the injectors are programmed. Also 2004. 5-2007 share the same bowl shape. When cummins went to 6. 7, they went back to the same bowl shape the 2003-2004 had, change some injector firing programming and problem solved.



He's got 7 engines on the floor waiting to be rebuilt right now.



Also the engines from Alberta were usually damaged from the fine dust that get past the factory filter and intake system. The turbo shows evidence of sandblasting.



If the k&n is at fault, maybe the turbo would show sandblasting.

 

[NIsaacs]

...



Really, though, when was the last time you saw a stock truck with a galled piston with less than 500k?

So, what does the owner think now? He probably had or has a gasser with the K&N that helped with a slight fuel milage improvement and now swears by them.



If you say so, I have no doubt that the engine was dusted. Reading your posts over the years prove your mechanical skills. I am also not defending the K&N, I feel like you do about them.



I am concerned about the piston in the pic, that damage was caused by more than dirt. It had to have seized from heat. Dirt over the years wears everything out, giving more clearance to the point of low power, blowby and oil consumption, even to the point carbon will bypass the rings and plug up the oil filter.



If that piston swelled enough for contact with the liner with all the clearance generated by the dirt, it had to have been very hot. For whatever reason. With a new rebuild and normal clearance, I would be a little worried if I didn't know why. Just a thought.



Nick

 

[HHhuntitall]

SRay, the turbo has been covered in oil a few times from the K&N, but it does have a bead-blasted finish to it, like it's been sand blasted a few times. Whenever I complained about dirt coming through the filter, the owner thought it was inadequate oiling of the filter, so he added some oil to it several times after I had serviced it..... This engine is a 2002 24v. The older style engine up to 2002 has the deep center burn area. They went to the hollow piston after that, with just a shallow bowl area on top, changing again when they went to the 325hp rating. I'm not sure it's the excessive idling that gets them down here... . Seems around here the excessive heat gets them, starting with #6. The rings break, and typically, it happens on the 05-07 5. 9s more frequently, and I've not had any that have done it without considerable programmers. I've never seen a ridge from the other rings. He's rebuilding a lot more than I do. I only take about one a month or two, as I've got a lot of other things to work on..... I've got several right now, just parked in the yard. Guess I'm too cheap, as they leave them there for 4-6 months to get them in line.



NIsaacs, you are correct. The ring broke. It's almost half the thickness of a new ring. I should get some pics of that... . All the rings are thin. There is minor taper to the cylinders, considering the mileage, as well.