Tunner questions

[AH64ID]

That is correct. The OEM fueling is enough for 100+ more hp than we get, but the injection timing is designed for emissions and not performance/power/economy.

 

[cerberusiam]

He does do some Marco magic on OEM limiters to get the ECM to fuel harder, but all in stock duration.

If it is fueling harder then the duration or pressure maps have changed, there is no way around the physics of it.

Timing will only go so far before it stars hurting power, then something else must change, ie duration or pressure. The cleaner exhuast indicates the timing and pressure has been more accurately mapped to the engine design, but, that is a far cry from saying it is timing only. Also, there are 2 events to consider. Is that duration that remains unchanged on the pilot or main event?

There has always been up to around 120 HP available with just pressure mapping changes and likely some timing in there as well.

As usual, am positive there is more going on there than what is ever reported or claimed. The discussion just makes for good press. :-laf

 

[AH64ID]

The Jr doesn't effect stock pressure or duration tables. But there are limiters built into the ECM that keep the motor from fueling fully, those are modified on the Jr tunes.

I did 415/850 with stock duration on UDC, the only think I modified was timing.

Have you ever seen how retarded the OEM timing is?

 

[cerberusiam]

But there are limiters built into the ECM that keep the motor from fueling fully

Tell me how these limiters that keep the engine from fueling fully do NOT impact duration and\or pressure maps?

"Fueling harder" and "timing only" are a direct contradiction in terms.

While the stock duration tables may not be modified, removing the limiters modifies the dynamic implementation of the tables.

Still cannot claim it is timing only though, as there are modifications being made to the fueling maps.

I notice you are not addressing pressure maps. Given there is around 120 HP available thru pressure and timing enhancements it begs the question.

 

[Prairie Dog]

From the Madds website:


Smarty offers SW# 0 that provides about HALF the power of a stock software. Emissions. Ehm. SW# 1 is a Fuel Saver software. SW# 2 deals only with Fuel and boost. SW # 3 is fuel, boost, and timing.

 

[AH64ID]

Tell me how these limiters that keep the engine from fueling fully do NOT impact duration and\or pressure maps?

"Fueling harder" and "timing only" are a direct contradiction in terms.

While the stock duration tables may not be modified, removing the limiters modifies the dynamic implementation of the tables.

Still cannot claim it is timing only though, as there are modifications being made to the fueling maps.

I notice you are not addressing pressure maps. Given there is around 120 HP available thru pressure and timing enhancements it begs the question.

The Jr uses 100% stock pressure maps (aside from a high altitude glicth I am working with MADS on). So I am not addressing it becuase the Jr doesn't use them.

The Jr uses stock duration tables, but the stock tuning doesn't allow for full use of the tables. There are limiters based on calculated torque, etc. So yes you do get more fuel than stock, but not from increasing the pressure or duration. There are also boost limiters, which is why we get a little more smoke than stock. But that additional fuel means more power, even thou you are still in the stock duration you are further up the maps for commanded fuel.

The majority of the Jr power is timing only. If 3° of timing is good for ±20 hp (thanks to Dog House Diesel) and there is room to run 15-20° more timing in the 1600-2500 rpm range, well you can do the math.

SW1 on the Jr has very few modified tables, why it's only 40hp, but still adds timing. SW1 only has a noticeable increase in power from 1600-2600 rpms on a dyno, up to 55 more hp. At 2000 rpms stock timing is -7° in the 2/3 to 3/4 throttle, ideal timing is closer to 10°, that's where power from timing occurs.

There is more fuel added, but not above what Cummins put into the tables. Now if you get into the Sr and 100+ hp you will see power from pressure/fuel/timing. But that is not the case on the Jr.

 

[cerberusiam]

So yes you do get more fuel than stock, but not from increasing the pressure or duration. Even thou you are still in the stock duration you are further up the maps for commanded fuel.

Exactly! Therefore it is not ALL timing it is also added fuel. I am not arguing the base fueling tables are changed, but, rather timing and duration DOES indeed change to create the added power. How do you add power with timing and duration? Easy, you change them to the positive which is exactly what is happening when the safeties are pulled from the "stock" tuning. Using "stock" as a description to describe the tables and their implementation is exactly where the contradiction comes in. If the range of duration is "stock" then it doesn't change. When you farther up in the fueling maps duration and pressure increase and it is not "stock" limits anymore. And, by definition, it is not timing only to generate the power which is gonna get some people in trouble if they take your original statement as fact.

Timing will add power but that is limited to 30-50 hp total but how it is generated across the rpm is not the same as adding 30 HP of fuel.

The majority of the Jr power is timing only. If 3° of timing is good for ±20 hp and there is room to run 15-20° more timing in the 1600-2500 rpm range, well you can do the math.

If the equation was linear it would be easy, its not. Three degrees generating 20 hp does not equate to 9 degrees equals 60 hp, given EVERTHING else stays the same. Smarty for the most part in the mid and upper range runs TOO MUCH timing. Its self defeating and is simply not a linear progression.

Back to the point of what the OP was questioning, the Smarty in any flavor adds fuel and power and likely does a lot of it in the lower rpms. For a stock auto transmission, death sentence if the truck is used hard. Even if it is not used hard the trans will have issues. Since the Smarty Jr defnitely adds power and fuel, its a crap shoot.

I wonder how much of that HP gain you saw with timing only on the UDC is a) your turbo and b) UDC removing safeties.

 

[Bouma]

You guys are way over my head. SO back to my original question. I understand there are differences in opinions on timing or timing and pulse etc. Let e pose the question this way. With reasonable foot control, not using it like a race car will the smarty hurt my trans? Will it shorten the life of my injectors? Everything on my truck is OEM. Thanks

 

[TCDiesel]

No one could answer that 100% sure, bottom line unless you purchase something that monitors engine parameters or Like load vs TP vs RPM vs Pressure =Hp,+EGT, Post/Pre, NOT cylinder temps, if you know the exact combination that will destroy component's its all guessing, I don't see JR any more harmful then any down-loader, Banks is by far the Most safest, it tells you when its adding Power,it tells you the grade,it warns you of input settings, I could go on and on.

Its the invisble settings that are set to Kill=$$$$

 

[cerberusiam]

With reasonable foot control, not using it like a race car will the smarty hurt my trans? Will it shorten the life of my injectors?

Everything I am about to postulate is on the 05 in my sig, 200k total miles, 160k with Smarty. YMMV.



Injectors, no. IF you attempt to use high quality fuel and do not use the higher rail pressure settings. The bulk of the mileage with Smarty has been on RP 2 with some on RP 3. RP 3 tends to run the cruise pressures higher than I like to see based on my ISSPRO gauge.



Stock transmission, probably. If you use the truck like it is intended and drive the same way as you would with a stock tune (hard to break that habit) you will have issues, only a matter of when. The OE tune is designed with limiters to protect the transmission. Remove them and the stock trans configuration is not adequate to handle the power. Took about 40k to completely burn the direct clutches out of a stock transmission and loosen the TC bolts to where they were just starting to walk in the holes. The TQ rise and how it occurs in the rpm range requires some trans work.



A little more power and a revised TQ curve make it completely different truck across the board. However, that does come with a price.

 

[AH64ID]

Exactly! Therefore it is not ALL timing it is also added fuel. I am not arguing the base fueling tables are changed, but, rather timing and duration DOES indeed change to create the added power. How do you add power with timing and duration? Easy, you change them to the positive which is exactly what is happening when the safeties are pulled from the "stock" tuning. Using "stock" as a description to describe the tables and their implementation is exactly where the contradiction comes in. If the range of duration is "stock" then it doesn't change. When you farther up in the fueling maps duration and pressure increase and it is not "stock" limits anymore. And, by definition, it is not timing only to generate the power which is gonna get some people in trouble if they take your original statement as fact.

Timing will add power but that is limited to 30-50 hp total but how it is generated across the rpm is not the same as adding 30 HP of fuel.

If you look at the OEM timing map you will see that it is mostly timing. When you want peak pressure 12-15° ATDC, and your injecting fuel starting at (minus pilot) -5. 9° (WOT 2000 rpms) you will not make anywhere near the power you can from the fuel.

If the duration tables are not modified then they are stock. Yes the Jr uses more of them that stock does, but they are still unmodified from the OEM tune.

This is one of my early timing maps, and is not what I am using now. I have since made my own timing calculator and am using one based on that.

#ad


As you can see there is a LOT of improvement that can be done over the stock table to make a lot of power just on timing.

Full stock table, 04. 5-07 5. 9

#ad

If the equation was linear it would be easy, its not. Three degrees generating 20 hp does not equate to 9 degrees equals 60 hp, given EVERTHING else stays the same. Smarty for the most part in the mid and upper range runs TOO MUCH timing. Its self defeating and is simply not a linear progression.

Back to the point of what the OP was questioning, the Smarty in any flavor adds fuel and power and likely does a lot of it in the lower rpms. For a stock auto transmission, death sentence if the truck is used hard. Even if it is not used hard the trans will have issues. Since the Smarty Jr defnitely adds power and fuel, its a crap shoot.

I wonder how much of that HP gain you saw with timing only on the UDC is a) your turbo and b) UDC removing safeties.

The 20hp was a ±20hp, numbers I have seen are between 10-40 depending on many things. I didn't publish that number, but I have seen it used by several reputable sources.

Smarty may run too much timing on the bigger tunes (Smarty SR, SSR) in the upper RPM's, but the UDC examples of the JR timing don't indicate that. They get a little high above 3200 rpms, but the Jr isn't setup for additional rpms so getting full fuel at 3500 rpms and full timing won't happen. In fact I run more timing that the Jr does (at any level) at low rpms, but I only get away with that because of the turbo, the stock turbo kept too much dirty air in the cylinder.

The UDC for the Jr uses the base tune from the Jr on SW3. I have ran them both quite a bit and know that the timing changes I am making are what is effecting my power. In fact my peak hp is down with UDC, but my torque is up.

The Jr will only add fuel (based on limiters) when you are driving aggressively, under normal driving that won't happen. And on SW1 that won't happen either.

The turbo really doesn't effect power, as fuel makes power not air. Like I said I am down peak up, but up on the torque over SW3, and the only difference in my tune and SW3 in the mid range is timing. I make about 30-60 more hp than SW3 at 1700-2000 rpms, with an additional 3-7° of timing. The new turbo makes less boost, so I am not fueling harder based on boost limiters either.

You guys are way over my head. SO back to my original question. I understand there are differences in opinions on timing or timing and pulse etc. Let e pose the question this way. With reasonable foot control, not using it like a race car will the smarty hurt my trans? Will it shorten the life of my injectors? Everything on my truck is OEM. Thanks

You will be fine on a Smarty Jr. Run SW1 Timing 2 Torque 4 PoD 95 and enjoy. It will give you a bit of economy and power, and shouldn't effect your trans (right foot) or your injectors. A word of caution thou, your idea of a safe right foot may not be safe. I would consider an upgrade valvebody and torque converter in the near future. Even if you don't need it to handle the power it will really improve power to the ground (from what I gather, I run a manual)/