B&W on 3500 Dually

[Powder Extreme]

Can the B&W be mounted ahead of the axle like you could on older trucks or is it one spot only directly over the axle?

It is mounted 6" further back in the bed than in my GMC.

Is the companion different for this truck than it was for all the other trucks?
Right now even with the hitch set as far forward as it can, the kingpin is about 3" behind the centerline of the axle.

Edit: this is on a new 3500 with the factory rails for the hitch, after talking to B&W the ball can only be placed in one position. Read on for my companion question.

 

[Cummins12V98]

I have the Companion in my 11 Dually. Full forward I am about 2. 5" ahead of the center line of the axle.

 

[Powder Extreme]

I have the Companion in my 11 Dually. Full forward I am about 2. 5" ahead of the center line of the axle.

Where is the gooseneck ball in relation to your axle?

 

[Beav76]

The B&W companion is new for the 2013 3500. I just installed one on a SRW and with the hitch in it's most forward position it is still slightly (less than 1") behind the centerline of the rear axle. Great hitch.

 

[Powder Extreme]

I talked to B&W this morning, they are sending me the additional feet that go on the bottom of the hitch to work in the bed of the new truck. He agreed that it will place the kingpin behind the centerline of the axle. One question I brought up was installing the companion hitch backwards which would place the kingpin ahead of the axle.

Of course they couldn't recommend doing that because it was never tested that way and I don't blame them for not wanting the liability of something that isn't tested as such.

Looking at how it is assembled, I don't really see what difference it makes. The hitch has to absorb tremendous strain in both directions, when you take off and when you stop. Turning it around effectively would reverse the "stop & go" forces, but I would think those forces would be relatively close to the same.

Thoughts?

 

[Cummins12V98]

Where is the gooseneck ball in relation to your axle?

Eyeballing it, the center of the square post that goes into the gooseneck hole is 5" ahead of center line of rear axle.

 

[Cummins12V98]

I talked to B&W this morning, they are sending me the additional feet that go on the bottom of the hitch to work in the bed of the new truck. He agreed that it will place the kingpin behind the centerline of the axle. One question I brought up was installing the companion hitch backwards which would place the kingpin ahead of the axle.

Of course they couldn't recommend doing that because it was never tested that way and I don't blame them for not wanting the liability of something that isn't tested as such.

Looking at how it is assembled, I don't really see what difference it makes. The hitch has to absorb tremendous strain in both directions, when you take off and when you stop. Turning it around effectively would reverse the "stop & go" forces, but I would think those forces would be relatively close to the same.

Thoughts?

this makes no sense! You are talking about your 10 Ram? My 11 is no different than your 10 so full forward you should be 2. 5" or so ahead of axle center to kingpin center.

 

[Cissco]

On the hitch the hooks for the chains should be behind the hitch. The rails under the bed can be put in backwards the angle iron should be in the rear. The release should be under the drivers side wheel well. I saw one put in backwards on a short bed to give the goose neck more clearance.

 

[Powder Extreme]

this makes no sense! You are talking about your 10 Ram? My 11 is no different than your 10 so full forward you should be 2. 5" or so ahead of axle center to kingpin center.

I apologize I wasn't specific in my post, this is on my new Ram which is a 2013 3500 so I have the new style B&W that doesn't use rails and plates on the sides, it uses the factory rails that are installed in the new trucks, which unfortunately places the ball directly above the axle. B&W said because of this new design, there is only one place the ball can go.

Any thoughts on turning the companion around?

 

[Cummins12V98]

I would not want the kingpin behind the axle. Center does not thrill me. 2" or so forward is correct in my book.

 

[cerberusiam]

it uses the factory rails that are installed in the new trucks, which unfortunately places the ball directly above the axle.

Thats where the weight bearing attachment point should be on a diesel, directly over the rear axle.

If the companion uses the mounting point directly over the axle and that is where the attachment points to the frame put it that is where the weight will be carried, not in the position of the king pin or the postion of the ball. Or close enough therein you won't be able to tell a difference.

 

[Powder Extreme]

Thats where the weight bearing attachment point should be on a diesel, directly over the rear axle.

If the companion uses the mounting point directly over the axle and that is where the attachment points to the frame put it that is where the weight will be carried, not in the position of the king pin or the postion of the ball. Or close enough therein you won't be able to tell a difference.

Have you looked at a companion hitch? The gooseneck portion carries zero weight, in fact it is being pulled up, not pushed down. The legs of the companion carry all of the weight, and how that is distributed to the axles depends on where in the bed it is sitting as well as the fore and aft adjustments built into the hitch itself.

Another issue with moving the kingpin back is wind resistance. The further from the back of the cab the trailer is, the more wind resistance there is.

 

[cerberusiam]

Have you looked at a companion hitch?

You mean like this one http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...0B95151AFC5359AEA68087839917&selectedIndex=0?

The rails or legs are for stabilization are not weight carrying. That would make as much sense as bolting a plate with a ball on it to the floor of the box and expecting it NOT to destroy the box. Once the trailer weight is added to the hitch it is supported by the under bed attachment system. The under bed attachment points are what are critical. The trailer attachment point can be 3" in front of or behind the axle center line and not make a material difference as long as the frame attachment points straddle the axle.

 

[Powder Extreme]

Sorry, but you are wrong.

The legs of the companion DO carry the weight. The gooseneck portion provides the lateral strength. Fore, aft, and side to side. When you mount the hitch, you suck it down to the floor of the truck with a bolt tightened to 40lbs. That gooseneck adapter is ONLY held to the companion with two u-bolts mounted from the side, parallel to the bed which wrap AROUND The adapter. There is NO way that a u-bolt held to that gooseneck adapter strictly by friction can sustain a 3,500lb vertical load, which is magnified greatly when hitting bumps.

Yes, the floor of the bed of the truck carries the load. Which is why B&W has made new feet for the new duallys to better match the ribs in the bed.

 

[cerberusiam]

Not the way it was explained to me by the installer. I was assured the bulk of the vertical weight was carried on the attachment point and the rails were for stability of the companion. The residual on the rails was transferred directly to the attachment plate under the box floor.

Either way, the point is moot. Even if some weight is carried on the rails it is not carried by the box and its mounts. The weight is carried on the attachment plate which should anchor to frame directly over the axle. The weight transference from any load will be on the frame attachment points regardless of the position of the ball or plate.

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

I just inspected a B&W 1314 gooseneck and 3500 Companion. Powder is correct. On the 3500, the socket post can be installed two ways, and the pivot arms three ways fore-aft as well as in three different heights. While earlier trucks usually have the gooseneck ball forward a few inches of the axle, depending where the hitch can be installed between "hat" sections under the bed, on the 2013-14 Ram 3500, the factory crossmember is over the axle and is where the 1314 gooseneck must be bolted. That placement determines where the Companion can go, within the limits mentioned above.

 

[Powder Extreme]

I just inspected a B&W 1314 gooseneck and 3500 Companion. Powder is correct. On the 3500, the socket post can be installed two ways, and the pivot arms three ways fore-aft as well as in three different heights. While earlier trucks usually have the gooseneck ball forward a few inches of the axle, depending where the hitch can be installed between "hat" sections under the bed, on the 2013-14 Ram 3500, the factory crossmember is over the axle and is where the 1314 gooseneck must be bolted. That placement determines where the Companion can go, within the limits mentioned above.

After looking at it, Joe, do you see any reason why I couldn't install the companion "backwards" with the post at the rear of the hitch instead of the front which would place the kingpin ahead of the axle instead of behind it?

I would think all it would do is "reverse the torque". What the hitch would normally absorb during accelerating would now be for stopping. To me I would think there would be a greater force when stopping and in the reversed position, the legs would be better positioned to absorb that force. On the other hand there is force pulling on the hitch almost constantly while towing.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

If you put the socket in position 2, the middle, there shouldn't be any problem. On the model 3500 it looks like that would change your possible kingpin/saddle positions from 1" forward, 1" behind, and 3" behind (toward the rear of the truck) to 1" forward or behind, and 3" forward, which it seems is what you want. Verify that you get these dimensions on your hitch; I think 3" forward of center is about as far as I would care to go.



In my case I need to use position 1 with the socket nearer the forward end of the hitch, to clear the Transfer Flow in-bed tank on my short bed Ram. I will be using the Companion in the normal direction. I wouldn't want to use position 1 with the hitch backwards as most of the forces should be toward the rear and you want long legs in that direction. I will have the kingpin 3" back from centered which may not be ideal for weight carrying, but gives a short bed truck more cab clearance and is one of the choices I would have with the recommended position 2 for the 2013s.

 

[RustyJC]

After looking at it, Joe, do you see any reason why I couldn't install the companion "backwards" with the post at the rear of the hitch instead of the front which would place the kingpin ahead of the axle instead of behind it?



I would think all it would do is "reverse the torque". What the hitch would normally absorb during accelerating would now be for stopping. To me I would think there would be a greater force when stopping and in the reversed position, the legs would be better positioned to absorb that force. On the other hand there is force pulling on the hitch almost constantly while towing.



What are your thoughts?

I'm not Joe (actually I am, just not Joe Donnelly), but from this old broken down mechanical engineer's perspective, I wouldn't mount the Companion hitch frame backwards. Why? Because the frame is designed to transfer forces directly from the frame to the adapter post during acceleration, but the braking forces are transferred to the post by the two (2) U-bolts. There is nothing moderating the acceleration forces, but the braking forces applied to the Companion hitch adapter post as tensile loading of the U-bolts are reduced by the trailer brakes. Therefore, I would expect acceleration forces experienced by the hitch to be greater than braking forces, and that's reflected in the design of the attachment mechanism. I wouldn't want the higher acceleration loads to be carried by the U-bolts.



Rusty

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

Rusty, I was only talking about Model 3500 which doesn't use U bolts. The socket bolts on with four 1/2 x 13 grade 8 bolts; each pivot arm likewise.