Dodge Ram Recall

[brods]

Apparently I did not get the point across. Two points really.

One: people are going to do what they will do. When my boss complains that the customers are abusing the equipment and we KNOW they will abuse the equipment in a certain way, should we try to design to prevent the abuse and try to educate the customer or should just we get our panties in a bunch and complain about it? You can fight human nature or work with it. Can you guess which is easier?

Second: If a part looks like a standard part which has been made for 50 or more years and some dumbass decides to make it radically different on the inside, how is anyone supposed to know?? You have totally ignored the question about that. Can you show where Chrysler has informed its mechanics about the right rod end? Do you think that is a good practice? I could not find specs to diagnose that rod end, can you? How is a mechanic or anyone supposed to educate themselves if the information is not available???

 

[cerberusiam]

One: people are going to do what they will do. When my boss complains that the customers are abusing the equipment and we KNOW they will abuse the equipment in a certain way, should we try to design to prevent the abuse and try to educate the customer or should just we get our panties in a bunch and complain about it? You can fight human nature or work with it. Can you guess which is easier?

I don't understnad the question, or the relevance. We are not talking about abuse, rather about reading and comprehension. The simple concept of do it wrong, do it right is balck and white.

Second: If a part looks like a standard part which has been made for 50 or more years and some dumbass decides to make it radically different on the inside, how is anyone supposed to know?? You have totally ignored the question about that. Can you show where Chrysler has informed its mechanics about the right rod end? Do you think that is a good practice? I could not find specs to diagnose that rod end, can you? How is a mechanic or anyone supposed to educate themselves if the information is not available???

The assembly I purchased directly form a Mopar Parts retailer included installation instructions and a NOTICE about alignmnet of the tie rods and possible consequences. Pretty sure Dodge has TSB's on this that installers can reference. Evidently even alignment shops have their own TSB systems as the one I am using is aware of the issues. The ones that weren't and would not listen I fired.

Every single system is different on these trucks across manufacturers, years, and even models. Each and every one has to be treated as its own specific animal. A tie rod may be the same thing for 50 years but how it used and installed varies widely. This is supposed to be part of the knowledge, at least that is what I think, that we pay professionals for. Complaining about changes, poor design, etc, is just excuses in the end. Having the corporate office making a fix for lackadaisical application of the profession would be insulting to me. I guess that defines the differences between parts changers and actual professionals.

 

[brods]

I don't understnad the question, or the relevance. We are not talking about abuse, rather about reading and comprehension. The simple concept of do it wrong, do it right is balck and white.




The assembly I purchased directly form a Mopar Parts retailer included installation instructions and a NOTICE about alignmnet of the tie rods and possible consequences. Pretty sure Dodge has TSB's on this that installers can reference. Evidently even alignment shops have their own TSB systems as the one I am using is aware of the issues. The ones that weren't and would not listen I fired.

You are proving my point. While the T linkage may be fully functional as designed, its differences have caused much confusion which has had to be addressed with all the TSBs. Just that re-education alone costs money which was probably not factored in the original cost analysis when the design was first accepted.

I also purchased the T linkage from Mopar, read the instructions and installed it correctly. Nowhere was the right ******* end mentioned. Nowhere were specs given to diagnose the end. Just keep em parallel, which I did.

In my case when later installing the larger steering box I noticed some up and down play in the right rod end. Normally any play in a tie rod end is unacceptable, but god knows after the huge allowable slop in the AAM ball joints, maybe it was “within tolerance”. So, investigating further, the rod end only had a small about of side to side movement and allowed no movement in the front to back direction. Once again that would mean a major problem on a regular tie rod end. At that point I cut it apart to expecting to see a corroded mess inside. Surprise!

The new steering box had detailed instructions for setting up the different linkages. Nowhere in those instructions does it mention the right tie rod end.

So, can you produce any documentation specifically on the right rod end? You complain we should educate ourselves, how do you propose we do that when the information is not available? What are the diagnostic procedures for these linkages? Must we assume they are the same as regular linkages due to the lack of information??

Every single system is different on these trucks across manufacturers, years, and even models. Each and every one has to be treated as its own specific animal. A tie rod may be the same thing for 50 years but how it used and installed varies widely. This is supposed to be part of the knowledge, at least that is what I think, that we pay professionals for. Complaining about changes, poor design, etc, is just excuses in the end. Having the corporate office making a fix for lackadaisical application of the profession would be insulting to me. I guess that defines the differences between parts changers and actual professionals.

This is the exact type of discussion we have at work. The world is full of parts changers and given the complexity of the vehicles and automated repair systems (ie scan tools telling the human what to do next) there will likely be an increase in parts changers. It seems you are of the opinion that the manufacturer should design for function without regard for the human factor aka parts changers. Humans are imperfect. Humans will likely be the end user/operator/installer of almost everything manufactured. Some consideration should be given in the design phase to how humans will interact with the product. And that includes humans operating it, maintaining it etc.

In the end we’ll have to agree to disagree. You apparently think the design is fine and the confusion and problems caused by the design are all the responsibility of the installers. I think the designers have a duty to at least consider the real world ramifications of their designs and modify them accordingly. That is how I approach all the design/operational control strategies on our equipment. If Chrysler had originally released the T linkage with the tuning fork to assist in proper installation, we would not be having this discussion. To me that is the difference between a good design and a not so good design.

 

[DonFitzwater]

I think it's a pi$$ poor design if a line mechanic at a dealership can't install it easily without screwing it up when I'm paying ridiculously high labor rates to do so. Hell, my local dealership asked what color the fluid was that was leaking out of my hemi's exhaust manifold..............not sure if they are smart enough to follow a well written TSB come to think of it......