When is the aftermarket...

[CM_Guest]

...going to come up with a REALLY good fuel supply SYSTEM that's a REAL improvement over stock? I know lots of guys LOVE their AirDogs and FASS's. That's fine. I can appreciate that they have a few advantages, but they also come with a laundry list of disadvantages that I just don't want to accept with a fuel system "upgrade". The fact is that the technololgy is already available to build a pump/filter system that would be infinitely better. I'm a John Deere service tech and for YEARS we've had integrated filter/transfer pump systems on Deere HPCR engines that DON'T have to be mounted close to the tank and DON'T have to use a regulator to kinda-sorta keep a constant pressure. Our pumps are mounted several feet in front of and several feet above the bottom of the tank. I don't think theres much limit to how far away they can be. But, the pickup in the tank is dedicated and separate from the sender assembly, which is quite a bit higher in another part of the tank. Regardless, I don't think having to "suck" fuel would be a problem. They also have water-in-fuel sensors integrated into them and provisions for pressure sensors. I think you could even set one up with a filter restriction capability. And of course filter changes require no bleeding. Change the filters, turn on the key and wait 60 seconds. Done deal. What I'm picturing is actually an electronic unit that could be programmed for a specific supply pressure and the system maintains that pressure not by fuel bypass but by pump speed. It's a piece of cake with a PWM-capable pump that can run at any speed. It would also continually compensate for any change in fuel temp or tank level or filter restriction by simply speeding up the pump just enough to maintain the programmed pressure. And because those pumps pull the fuel through the primary filter and push it through the final filter, all you need is a line from the tank to the pump. Filtration ability? Deere HPCR engines use a 10-micron primary and 2-micron final filter. That should be clean enough. Reliability? We see very few failures and that's on tractors burning 10,000+ gallons per year. When they do fail, it's a 5-minute fix. And if you wanted a bypass function in order to run your filter through...say...a fuel COOLER and then back to the tank, it would be simple. Bypass to a fuel cooler capability would be awesome. It's amazing that no aftermarket companies are pushing fuel COOLERS if they're interested in performance. But they sell lots of fuel HEATERS. Which is what those big transfer pumps are. Fuel temperature has a huge effect on engine power and efficiency. WAY more than air temperature does. If you've ever noticed a diesel engine gaining power when the sun goes down, conventional wisdom is that it's air temp cooling that does it. Not so. Turbocharged diesel engines really don't care that much how hot the air coming is becuase the turbo packs way more than they can use in anyway. But there's a huge gain with cooler fuel. By huge I mean 3-4% per 18-degree change in fuel temp at the injection pump inlet. Which means if you could cool the fuel in your tank from 140 down to 100 degrees you'd pick up 10% more horsepower per injection or 10% more fuel economy at a given speed. And since we've been using fuel coolers in the ag, heavy truck and industrial industries for DECADES, I tend to think there's a REASON they haven't found their way into the automotive industry. So my idea would be an OEM transfer pump/fuel filter assembly coupled with a controller/driver and a small display - or controlled through a TUNER - to allow you to set your desired pressure and monitor actual pressure. Along with a filter restriction indicator or warning that you could adjust to be alerted to change filters when it's REALLY needed instead of doing it too often. Because most guys that care about their trucks DO change their fuel filters too often. This would eliminate that. Adding in a "engine hours" capability would be simple. It wouldn't be "cheap" by any means, but compared to the PRESENT options with NONE of those capabilities AND the ability to mount it ANYWHERE, it could certainly be "inexpensive". So tell me what you think. If you think I'm an idiot, tell me. I can take it. And I should mention the one thing I'm NOT sure of is pressure rating. I have an '02 so I was brainstorming based upon 20 psi fuel pressure. But Im sure that if higher pressure is required, somebody can build the parts to make it.

 

[JR]

Sounds like your about ready for production!

I think the main reason a quality pump like your talking about has not been built is simple: not enough demand. The VP trucks are really the only Cummins powered trucks that had junk OEM lift pumps from the factory. The 12 valves were mechanical and lasted forever, and additional filtration seems to be not as beneficial as with other fuel systems. I think the early CR engines had some block mounted lift pumps but eventually they went to in tank pumps and seem quite reliable even with modified engines. So the only shortfall with the CR trucks is filtration, which can be had for much cheaper with a standard twin filter set up while still utilizing the OEM lift pump.
Bottom line is most people are not going to be willing to spend well north of a grand for a lift pump to protect an injection pump that would cost even less to replace.

HOWEVER, it is frustrationg for us VP guys to have to deal with mediocore aftermarket lift pumps that come at top of the line pricing

 

[BLNRAY]

my 03 just turned over 397,000 mi,about 375,000mi with a Fass 150 and it's "laundry list" of disadvantages.still have oem injectors so i kinda think fass is doing a good job inspite of the list,which i didn't get.

 

[CM_Guest]

I'm happy for you. If you want to have a contest, I can show you a 400,000+ mile '90 W250 4x4 that's a lifelong farm truck running the original injectors with the original fuel filter system. I think it's had ONE new transfer pump. I kinda think those Dodge and Cummins engineers knew what they were doing. And they didn't even charge extra for it. 397,000 on an '03 screams HIGHWAY MILES to me. Where even with a good load, once you're up to speed, you're maybe using 20% of the capacity of that fuel system. So it SHOULD last a long time. We could get into how much better it is for the engine to be driven on long trips at steady speeds and warmed up completely on a consistent basis vs. a being a farm truck that alternates between short trips at light load and getting its guts pulled out, if you like. It's common for OTR trucks to get 500,000 out of a set of injectors. After all, that's what diesel engines are built for. Some run 1,000,000 miles with ZERO internal work on the engine. Which tells me that the factory engineers know what they're doing when they design and spec components and determine service intervals and that there's really no REAL room for REAL improvement if they've done their jobs right. But to listen to the aftermarket sales pitches and the guys that buy them, there isn't ANYTHING on a brand-new pickup that they can't make better. Well, they should just go into the truck business then. Because I've had to work on way too many machines with all kinds of "improvements" and "upgrades" that didn't do anything but take something that was stock and therefore easy to work on and find parts for and find service info for and turn it into a nightmare for a technician and parts department to figure out. Once upon a time, I thought that cool, bolt-on "performance" stuff was AWESOME. Then I got out of high school, went to tech school and started working on machines that had been "improved" by their owners. Now I don't even want to modify my OWN stuff if the modification is just going to require hacking up something the factory did just fine. So no, I don't want a FASS or AirDog on my trucks and I DO think there's a laundry list of disadvantages to them. Correction, I KNOW there is. But I can respect that you like yours and I hope you go a million happy miles together. Maybe you can acknowledge that MY opinion of them is based on MY experience with that kind of equipment TOO. And my "dream system", which is just that, shouldn't really threaten you too much. My point was pretty simple. The technology exists to make a far superior system that can make many GENUINE improvements to the vehicle by doing a bunch of things the factory system or any aftermarket system currently available can't. And like I said, it's surprising now one has done something similar. Look how far tuners and programmers have come.

 

[JR]

HPCR injectors can have multiple injections per combustion cycle, especially the most recent fuel systems. You would have to about double your engine hours just to equal the number of times a CR injector fires. The difference in tolerances and pressures between the 2 injectors is worlds apart too. Not a very good comparison.

 

[Killgore]

I think we've found a new guru in CJMEYER1, from a different background. It's nice to have your input, even if it's painted green, the color of money, lol.
- Ed

 

[BIGNASTY]

My old AD 100 at 140K + or - a few K works just fine with the extra filters ending in a 2mic final, Don't know all the in's and out's of the system but wouldn't the fuel that is being returned to the tank be heated by the motor that didn't need it? And I really think that my AD 100 would pump it to the motor from just about anyplace that I mounted it, it was just a nice spot and had room to put it there and easy for filter changes without being a contortionist trying to get into them, the fuel pressure gauge tells me that the filters are going south and need to be changed. I dont bleed air I spin on empty filters cycle the key 2 times fire it up and let it catch it breath before I ask anything of it.

Cost would be my guess as to why the Factory don't do alot of things better, I would have liked to see front wheel bearings that made it past 50K U Joints that took a dive around the same time.

 

[Killgore]

And yes, Big, John Deere to name at least one manufacturer, is going to produce a product that hopefully experiences a minimum of unscheduled downtime. When a farmer needs to be in the field, he won't put up with something that needs to go to the shop. And, that reliability costs money to produce.
- Ed

 

[BIGNASTY]

And yes, Big, John Deere to name at least one manufacturer, is going to produce a product that hopefully experiences a minimum of unscheduled downtime. When a farmer needs to be in the field, he won't put up with something that needs to go to the shop. And, that reliability costs money to produce.
- Ed

Reliability!!! this is Reliability, couple of flakes of alfalfa some grain an apple or carrots and some clean up everyday :-laf

Little short on the creature comforts, like heat but hey that's what coats are for !!

 

[CM_Guest]

I think we've found a new guru in CJMEYER1, from a different background. It's nice to have your input, even if it's painted green, the color of money, lol.
- Ed

Nope. Not a "guru". Just a guy that's been living and breathing diesels for 20+ years. It's interesting how even though automotive and industrial/construction/agrilture, the state of relative technology is usually reversed from what you'd expect. We've been working on "drive by wire" diesels for 25 years now and programming with laptops for close to 15 years. On a new HPCR machine there are literally hundreds of engine and machine parameters we can watch in real-time. Everything from rail pressure to turbo speed to fuel consumption and engine load factor. We can graph, record and save all that stuff and upload it to Deere for them to look at if there's a problem, as well as take a "snapshot" of what was going on during a fault code that happened hundreds of hours before. Now we're getting in to the technology to all of that remotely via built-in cellular phone systems in the tractor. For 6 or 7 years at least farmers have been able to subscribe to a system that lets them look at everything their machines are doing remotely. The tractors use the same system to send the farmer and us an email when there's a fault code. And we're getting into remote-control of one machine from another. Particularly allowing a combine operator to control the grain cart tractor while unloading on the go. I always have to laugh at car owners that think their touch-screen monitors in the dash are new and high-tech. We've been doing it for 8 or 9 years and there's a USB port to synch your smart phone in pretty much every "premium" machine these days. There are still some simple machines that only have a few controllers on board. But a lot of the stuff we work on has 20 controllers or more on a CAN-bus.

 

[CM_Guest]

If we're getting technical, engines with injection pumps don't have "injectors". They have nozzles. And I'm aware of how HPCR systems operate. HPCR systems are built to much closer tolerances than pump-nozzle system, and the multiple injection events (pilot injection) actually make life easier on the injector, not harder. The business end of an HPCR injector is actually subjected to a pretty ideal situation in that respect. HPCR engine controls can control engine temperature and load and keep cylinder pressures in check and engine temperature correct all the time. Compared to a pump-nozzle engine where the engine can be overcooled and loaded up with fuel and coat the nozzle tips with carbon. The fuel entering an HPCR system is also filtered to a much higher level than what an injection pump gets. 10-micron primary and 2-micron final filtration is pretty standard these days. And of course an HPCR system can self-prime after a filter change or being ran out of fuel, so there's much less dry cranking trying to get the engine to fire compared to pump/nozzle engines. Personally, I think 400.000 on an HPCR engine is to be expected and 400,000 on a pump/nozzle system is doing pretty good. If you know of any other 400,000-mile Cummins Dodges with the original nozzles in them let me know.

 

[SnoKing]

CJMEYER1 your post would be way easier to read if you broke them into paragraphs. Chris

...going to come up with a REALLY good fuel supply SYSTEM that's a REAL improvement over stock? I know lots of guys LOVE their AirDogs and FASS's. That's fine. I can appreciate that they have a few advantages, but they also come with a laundry list of disadvantages that I just don't want to accept with a fuel system "upgrade".

The fact is that the technololgy is already available to build a pump/filter system that would be infinitely better. I'm a John Deere service tech and for YEARS we've had integrated filter/transfer pump systems on Deere HPCR engines that DON'T have to be mounted close to the tank and DON'T have to use a regulator to kinda-sorta keep a constant pressure.

Our pumps are mounted several feet in front of and several feet above the bottom of the tank. I don't think theres much limit to how far away they can be. But, the pickup in the tank is dedicated and separate from the sender assembly, which is quite a bit higher in another part of the tank. Regardless, I don't think having to "suck" fuel would be a problem. They also have water-in-fuel sensors integrated into them and provisions for pressure sensors. I think you could even set one up with a filter restriction capability. And of course filter changes require no bleeding. Change the filters, turn on the key and wait 60 seconds. Done deal.

What I'm picturing is actually an electronic unit that could be programmed for a specific supply pressure and the system maintains that pressure not by fuel bypass but by pump speed. It's a piece of cake with a PWM-capable pump that can run at any speed. It would also continually compensate for any change in fuel temp or tank level or filter restriction by simply speeding up the pump just enough to maintain the programmed pressure. And because those pumps pull the fuel through the primary filter and push it through the final filter, all you need is a line from the tank to the pump.

Filtration ability? Deere HPCR engines use a 10-micron primary and 2-micron final filter. That should be clean enough.

Reliability? We see very few failures and that's on tractors burning 10,000+ gallons per year. When they do fail, it's a 5-minute fix. And if you wanted a bypass function in order to run your filter through...say...a fuel COOLER and then back to the tank, it would be simple. Bypass to a fuel cooler capability would be awesome. It's amazing that no aftermarket companies are pushing fuel COOLERS if they're interested in performance. But they sell lots of fuel HEATERS. Which is what those big transfer pumps are.

Fuel temperature has a huge effect on engine power and efficiency. WAY more than air temperature does. If you've ever noticed a diesel engine gaining power when the sun goes down, conventional wisdom is that it's air temp cooling that does it. Not so. Turbocharged diesel engines really don't care that much how hot the air coming is becuase the turbo packs way more than they can use in anyway. But there's a huge gain with cooler fuel. By huge I mean 3-4% per 18-degree change in fuel temp at the injection pump inlet. Which means if you could cool the fuel in your tank from 140 down to 100 degrees you'd pick up 10% more horsepower per injection or 10% more fuel economy at a given speed. And since we've been using fuel coolers in the ag, heavy truck and industrial industries for DECADES, I tend to think there's a REASON they haven't found their way into the automotive industry.

So my idea would be an OEM transfer pump/fuel filter assembly coupled with a controller/driver and a small display - or controlled through a TUNER - to allow you to set your desired pressure and monitor actual pressure. Along with a filter restriction indicator or warning that you could adjust to be alerted to change filters when it's REALLY needed instead of doing it too often.

Because most guys that care about their trucks DO change their fuel filters too often. This would eliminate that. Adding in a "engine hours" capability would be simple. It wouldn't be "cheap" by any means, but compared to the PRESENT options with NONE of those capabilities AND the ability to mount it ANYWHERE, it could certainly be "inexpensive".

So tell me what you think. If you think I'm an idiot, tell me. I can take it. And I should mention the one thing I'm NOT sure of is pressure rating. I have an '02 so I was brainstorming based upon 20 psi fuel pressure. But Im sure that if higher pressure is required, somebody can build the parts to make it.

 

[SnoKing]

It's amazing that no aftermarket companies are pushing fuel COOLERS if they're interested in performance.

I have two Cummins B150(4BT) in our boat. I can set the throttles at a given RPM (and they do not creep) and as the hours of operation count up the RPM come down. The engine room gets pretty warm! The blower are set up to pull air out, so I do not run them very often. I have thought about turning them around to push fresh air into the engine room. I have two 100 gallon fuel tanks with each engine set on the manifold valves to use and return to the tank on the same side as the engine.

I never have thought about the fuel getting warm verses them just being feed real warm air after a couple hours. Guess I will go ahead and reverse the blowers and duck the incoming air to the bilge under the engines, and see if it makes a difference.

Chris

 

[Killgore]

CJ, you're preaching to the choir. I worked for Dickey-john thirty years ago when "agrionics" was just becoming popular; radar ground speed input, tractor perfomance monitoring, combine grain loss monitors, planter monitors, spray control systems, etc. John Deere was our biggest customer as an OEM supplier. Of course, I remember the day when farmers didn't soil test either, just throwing dollars on the ground year after year hoping to satisfy nutritional requirements. Today to be successful, it's now beyond just working hard - you've got to think smart. And that, is why most of us drive a Ram Cummins.
- Ed

 

[BIGNASTY]

CJMEYER1

You will not only find that your opinion will be scrutinized, you should be a linguistics expert and be the very best at letter writing, Correct All Punctuation Errors, Enhance Your Writing skills, and still if your opinion DIFFERS at ALL you can only expect the very best in some of these guys to come out.

As a fellow Husker welcome, was born in North Platte, still have an Aunt that lives there, but have been transplanted to other parts of the country and found home a little NW of NB.

BIG

 

[Killgore]

And Chris has a PhD in English! :-laf

 

[CM_Guest]

Air temp does have an effect, it just not near as dramatic as we're told of it. I can look up the info but I think Deere claims that 18 degrees of air temp reduction is around 1%.

 

[SnoKing]

CJMEYER1

You will not only find that your opinion will be scrutinized, you should be a linguistics expert and be the very best at letter writing, Correct All Punctuation Errors, Enhance Your Writing skills, and still if your opinion DIFFERS at ALL you can only expect the very best in some of these guys to come out.

As a fellow Husker welcome, was born in North Platte, still have an Aunt that lives there, but have been transplanted to other parts of the country and found home a little NW of NB.

BIG

#ad
Well he has some good ideas, it just hurts one brain to try and read it all run into one paragraph! As I broke it up I was actually able to follow and understand what he was saying!!!!



Chris

 

[SnoKing]

And Chris has a PhD in English! :-laf

#ad
I never touched a word of his english!!!!!! Chris

 

[CM_Guest]

I've been told that before. And if I were writing a magazine article, I'd have it in paragraphs. I wrote a handful of magazing articles several years ago for Tractor Shop Magazine and that barely paid well enough to bother with paragraphs. I haven't seen my first paycheck here yet, lol.