Elusive Drive-line Vibration Issue

[bcbender]

Good afternoon all...

I am a long time member and reader of the TDR, I don't often post or reply, I just read and learn more as does many others I suspect and with that said I welcome any input or insights from this very knowledgeable group. On to my dilemma

I have been chasing a drive-train vibration for months now and I am almost at the point of frustration that I am considering a new truck...problem is I don't feel like throwing down 60k and I still like my truck!
The vibration is only felt (seat of the pants ) between 50 and 60 mph, usually during decel and is only really felt if I have the exhaust brake on. That being said it is intermittent in nature, so some time is bad, some time so so, sometimes not at all. Doesn't seem to change based on load.. but most of the time I am empty.
NOTE ( this is a 305 engine / NV5600 T/M and the truck has 4:10 R-Ratio ) so for most of you it would be more like 60 ~70 mph )

I have read many a post on the TDR and other sites but cannot find some one who shares this exact or similar mode so here I go.

Originally we thought is was a bad pinion bearing as a friend's 05 had a similar issue and both our axles had almost zero bearing preload, we rebuilt the axle with new bearings and there was no change in my vibration. ( everything in the axle looked good except minor bearing wear. )

Then inspected drive shaft u joints and carrier bearing.. OK
Then we replaced the transfer case output shaft bushing... no change
Then replaced two piece drive shaft to one piece aluminum... no change ( lucky me I borrowed my friends and didn't throw dn $850 )
Removed front drive shaft..... no change..(on my truck when the front drive shaft u joints were bad it vibrated constantly between 72 and 76 mph)
All fluids are up to the level (TM is +1qt)
All four tires rotated and re-balanced..

Thoughts?

At this point I guess I need to plan to pull the transmission, and take a look at the clutch.. it is the stock one with 160K miles...

I hope it is not internal to the 5600, hence the consideration of trading up if it is.....I don't want to go down the road of 2k here, 3k there, etc I just want a reliable truck to pull my 5er.

Thanks in advance, I'm sure that I'll get a lot of input,.

Brian

And Yes I do tow (22k GVW) and No I don't pull grades in 6th.. If I do rolling hills in 6th ( through NC / GA / VA ) I do not fuel above 800 / 900 EGT I just slow down....

 

[ranger 393]

Just on a hunch, have you checked to see if you have a rear caliper sticking.

 

[petersonj]

Just on a hunch, have you checked to see if you have a rear caliper sticking.

You are the first person I know who has associated a sticking rear caliper to a driveline vibration. I have personally experienced that exact situation some time ago in my 2002 truck. I had it happen twice, first on the left rear caliper and then on the right rear caliper. The first time I felt the vibration (at about 55 mph on smooth pavement) I was positive it was driveline vibration. It took me about six months to figure out it wasn't a driveline vibration because I couldn't always feel the vibration every time I drove the truck.

One day when I was coming home with the truck, the vibration occurred on a newly paved section of roadway at about 55 mph and it was fairly strong. It seemed to fade away. or it just got hidden because I got back onto older pavement, but when I arrived home and stepped out of the truck I could smell something that smelled like hot clutch material or hot brake pads. I checked the temperature of the rotors one at a time and found the left rear rotor was very hot and all of the other rotors were cool. From then on I started monitoring the rotor temperatures every time I drove the truck. Nothing happened for a couple of weeks. Then on a trip I felt the vibration again. I immediately pulled off to the side of the road and checked rotor temperatures. The left rear rotor was very hot to the touch. I finished the trip and the vibration and hot rotor condition disappeared on their own. It took a few weeks, but the symptoms periodically repeated themselves and each time the vibration occurred the left rear rotor was very hot.

I replaced the left rear caliper assembly and the problem disappeared. However, a few months and about 5000 miles later I felt the vibration again. My first thought was that I had misdiagnosed the problem, but then I thought - wait a minute, and I pulled off to the side of the road. This time the right rear rotor was very hot to the touch. I replaced that caliper and once again the vibration was gone and has never returned. That was four years and 80,000 miles ago. I would have never thought that a brake problem symptom could duplicate the feel of a driveline vibration!

So, for Bcbender's sake, I hope you are right and that this is his problem as it is not an expensive repair.

- John

 

[Killer223]

i was thinking the harmonic dampener. the brakes sound like a good place to look as well.
my early 04 has a vibration issue as well. but it's tire related, it goes away after a rotate rebalanced, then comes back.. i think i have bad tire... but will be getting new ones this sumer.
good luck though.

 

[ranger 393]

My 04.5 had a little vibration on take off ,and my first thought was clutch, or driveline related,but once you got a little speed it went away. Then I had the door open one day as I moved my truck and I heard something that did'nt sound right, I pulled the left brake caliper and found that it was only sliding on one caliper pin,the other pin was sticking the brake pad closed against the rotor. Fixed it and vibration went away.

You are the first person I know who has associated a sticking rear caliper to a driveline vibration. I have personally experienced that exact situation some time ago in my 2002 truck. I had it happen twice, first on the left rear caliper and then on the right rear caliper. The first time I felt the vibration (at about 55 mph on smooth pavement) I was positive it was driveline vibration. It took me about six months to figure out it wasn't a driveline vibration because I couldn't always feel the vibration every time I drove the truck.

One day when I was coming home with the truck, the vibration occurred on a newly paved section of roadway at about 55 mph and it was fairly strong. It seemed to fade away. or it just got hidden because I got back onto older pavement, but when I arrived home and stepped out of the truck I could smell something that smelled like hot clutch material or hot brake pads. I checked the temperature of the rotors one at a time and found the left rear rotor was very hot and all of the other rotors were cool. From then on I started monitoring the rotor temperatures every time I drove the truck. Nothing happened for a couple of weeks. Then on a trip I felt the vibration again. I immediately pulled off to the side of the road and checked rotor temperatures. The left rear rotor was very hot to the touch. I finished the trip and the vibration and hot rotor condition disappeared on their own. It took a few weeks, but the symptoms periodically repeated themselves and each time the vibration occurred the left rear rotor was very hot.

I replaced the left rear caliper assembly and the problem disappeared. However, a few months and about 5000 miles later I felt the vibration again. My first thought was that I had misdiagnosed the problem, but then I thought - wait a minute, and I pulled off to the side of the road. This time the right rear rotor was very hot to the touch. I replaced that caliper and once again the vibration was gone and has never returned. That was four years and 80,000 miles ago. I would have never thought that a brake problem symptom could duplicate the feel of a driveline vibration!

So, for Bcbender's sake, I hope you are right and that this is his problem as it is not an expensive repair.

- John

 

[bcbender]

Wow, I never would of thought about brake drag, I will check this weekend when I go to wintergreen. Checked the damper, it's good, although a fluid damper would be nice, I will say that I have had the vibration off and on for a while now, it's been worse since I rebuilt the rear axle and did brakes rear axle minus replacing calipers

 

[TWebster]

This going to sound crazy, but it happened on my 2005 5.7 gas 2500 4dr 4wd. If you have a friend with newer tires, see if you can trade with him for a week. I chased a driveline vibration for a few years, tires finally wore out, new tires, no vibration. They were rotated regularly. They were also VERY hard to rebalance

 

[bcbender]

I still have the stock tires, I could try, but I did have the tires re balanced last week. Going back to the brakes if it were calipers and brake drag, why would the exhaust brake amplify the vibration?

 

[TWebster]

I still have the stock tires, I could try, but I did have the tires re balanced last week. Going back to the brakes if it were calipers and brake drag, why would the exhaust brake amplify the vibration?

I did that also, several times, but when I bought new tires, the vibes were gone------just what happened in my case

 

[petersonj]

Going back to the brakes if it were calipers and brake drag, why would the exhaust brake amplify the vibration?

It's a good question and I don't have an answer for you. I do know that in my case I would have never dreamed that a sticking caliper could show itself as feeling like a driveline vibration. I also know from experience that noise, vibration, and harshness (NVH) can at times be extremely difficult to diagnose and sometimes the solution is not where you think it is.

It is likely that you do have a driveline vibration, but just keep an open mind to other possibilities, even if there is no explanation at the moment. I think you can rule out the brake caliper theory at no cost. Just drive your truck for a few minutes while the vibration is occurring and then pull to the side of the road with minimal braking. Check the rear rotors for excessive heat using your hand (use care in case one is hot). If both rotors are uniform in temperature (cool to warm), then this is not the source of your vibration.

So far you have been diagnosing the symptoms in a thorough and logical order and if you persevere I think you will find the solution. Of course, we will all want to know the final outcome.

Best of luck,

- John

 

[ssanders60]

I had the same vibration at 70 mph, from the time it was almost new until it got worse and finally at 92,000 miles it got so bad
you couldn't drive it. It was the CV joint in the front drive shaft, the u-joints were good, everything about the shaft looked good. The dealer shop
said they couldn't find the problem. I convinced them to take the drive shaft out and then they understood the problem, it was hanging up
in the CV joint. I balanced tires time and again from the advice of the dealer. A new drive shaft was installed and no more vibration.

2003 quad cab 4x4 H/O cummins. Truck now has 168,000 miles and no vibration. ($620) Ticks me off that it could have been done during warranty.

 

[Motorhead]

I had the same vibration at 70 mph, from the time it was almost new until it got worse and finally at 92,000 miles it got so bad
you couldn't drive it. It was the CV joint in the front drive shaft, the u-joints were good, everything about the shaft looked good. The dealer shop
said they couldn't find the problem. I convinced them to take the drive shaft out and then they understood the problem, it was hanging up
in the CV joint. I balanced tires time and again from the advice of the dealer. A new drive shaft was installed and no more vibration.

2003 quad cab 4x4 H/O cummins. Truck now has 168,000 miles and no vibration. ($620) Ticks me off that it could have been done during warranty.

If you had documented that the issue was there while you were in warranty, they are usually obligated to fix it. I had a 2wd 2001.5 second gen I bought new. It was an automatic with the one piece aluminum drive line. It had a creak in the drive line when it was put into drive or reverse. Of course, the dealer could never hear it. (They must have been DEAF) I brought it up to them twice while in warranty. My warranty expired and about 10,000 miles after, the drive line got noisier. I took it to the dealer, I duplicated the noise while the mechanic listened. They replaced my drive line NO charge and considered it warranty.

 

[ranger 393]

When I bought my truck new it had the "70" mph vibration. The dealership did'nt know how to fix it. I spaced the center carrier bearing down at least 1 inch. Doing this puts the two driveshafts more inline with each other, and 70 mph vibration went away. IMO the center carrier is to far away from the universal joint. I use to work for a class 8 truck manufacturer years ago , and have installed many drivelines, and the center carrier was always up next to the universal joints.

I had the same vibration at 70 mph, from the time it was almost new until it got worse and finally at 92,000 miles it got so bad
you couldn't drive it. It was the CV joint in the front drive shaft, the u-joints were good, everything about the shaft looked good. The dealer shop
said they couldn't find the problem. I convinced them to take the drive shaft out and then they understood the problem, it was hanging up
in the CV joint. I balanced tires time and again from the advice of the dealer. A new drive shaft was installed and no more vibration.

2003 quad cab 4x4 H/O cummins. Truck now has 168,000 miles and no vibration. ($620) Ticks me off that it could have been done during warranty.

 

[Kry226]

When I bought my truck new it had the "70" mph vibration. The dealership did'nt know how to fix it. I spaced the center carrier bearing down at least 1 inch. Doing this puts the two driveshafts more inline with each other, and 70 mph vibration went away. IMO the center carrier is to far away from the universal joint. I use to work for a class 8 truck manufacturer years ago , and have installed many drivelines, and the center carrier was always up next to the universal joints.

Glad you found your issue, but there are many SWB trucks (including mine) which had the 70 mph vibe. Mine also had it since new.

 

[cerberusiam]

Then replaced two piece drive shaft to one piece aluminum... no change ( lucky me I borrowed my friends and didn't throw dn $850 )

If that was the OE aluminum shaft it won't cure the harmonics issue, it is almost as bad as the steel one. If it was a 5" shaft then the flange on the rear diff will still be a source of the problems.

You might try a fluid damper and see if that will resolve it, that is the cheapest and easiest solution if it works. The other fix that usually resolves the problem is a 5" shaft and lose the flange on the rear diff, that is about $900 to get all the pieces to do it correctly.

 

[bcbender]

Update...

So I drove her to wintergreen this weekend (300+ miles) and it drove fine... I checked the vibration issue a few times and the rotors were not hot, about same side to side (it was 14 deg outside) and my fuel mileage was the best its been in awhile... So I guess that rules out the caliper for now.
I took off my BFG K02s and threw on the OE wheels and tires last night, drove this am and it seems like no change, I will drive some more today but I think we may be able to rule out the wheels / tires since two complete sets, randomly installed, and same exact issue I feel like the odds are slim its tire related.

Cerberusiam.. I value your information as you have helped me many times in the past, I did try a OE (G56 shaft that was shortened) it does not vibrate or resonate in the donor truck, and is installed behind a NV5600 just like mine. My intent was to rule out the vibration as shaft induced / related or not. Result: it did not change / improve / or reduce the vibration at all so I assume it not to be the primary source although these do contribute. I also inspected ( by removal ) the damper and it is "in spec" per the manual, so I opted not to replace at this time.

Just to reiterate for those joining now, this vibration is not a steady state, ( ie like a front shaft vibrating / resonating at specific speed ), this vibration comes on and goes away only during deceleration and is primarily only felt when the exhaust brake is engaged. I'm sure its there without the brake on but just not enough to feel in the seat. If I drive at the same speed it vibrates, I do not feel the vibration under load ( accel or steady state) only during deceleration.

Next steps:

I plan to remove the fast coolers and side covers of the 5600 and insect visually, then I guess remove the transfer case and transmission to check the condition of the clutch.. At this point unless anyone has another point to consider I am hoping my Christmas present will be a South Bend DD instead of sending the 5600 out for rebuild. Other than the vibration the truck runs and drives great!

Thoughts

Brian

 

[cerberusiam]

The harmonic damper may be in spec but that doesn't mean it is adequate. There has been more than one cause of these harmonics disappearing when a good fluid damper is added to a problem truck, to be fair just as many where it did not help because the issue was elsewhere.

Probably 1 out of 4 or 5 the O drive line does not solve the problem and the flange on the rear diff ends up being the issue, or a combination of flange and DS. A manual with a clutch introduces more possibilities and there is no good way to narrow it down unless you find something obvious. All you can do is keep digging.

 

[KATOOM]

You can isolate the transmission and the clutch from the equation by pressing the clutch in while the vibration is occurring at road speeds.
If the vibration changes with the speed of the engine then its obviously related to the engine, either clutch assembly, internal issue, or harmonic balancer.
If the vibration remains while the clutch is in then continue to hold the clutch pedal in and shift into neutral. If the vibration still remains then its likely related to the driveline as the only component spinning at the same rate as the driveshaft at that point inside the transmission is the counter shaft. That would mean inspecting more closely all the joint locations. A u-joint can still feel tight but have a dry or tight cap which will result in changes in the oscillation pattern and cause vibrations. Or the driveline lost a weight or fell out of balance by changing joints or bent tubing or yoke ears.

 

[NAllen]

I have 03 5.9 with nv5600 had same problem turned out to be tires I rotated them put air pressure recommended by mfg on door sticker viberation almost gone I think when I buy new tires it will go away completely

 

[KATOOM]

As I try to point out in all "vibration" threads I come across..... Its very important to understand what type of vibration we're talking about.

Meaning, a fast harmonic vibration which feels like a massaging tool will generally be related to fast moving things like driveline, engine, transmission, etc...
But a slow wobbly vibration which feels more like a washing machine during the spin cycle will generally be related to slower moving things like tires, brakes, alignment, etc...