Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Need help thinking through IP options

[Man_of_Constant_Sorrow]

I appear to have the sticking barrel/plunger problem on a 1995. Has about 190k miles, automatic, just a stock work truck. So I'm pulling the pump to have it rebuilt or exchange it for a rebuilt one. I'm a little concerned that a rebuilt pump will develop the same problem eventually. I've talked with one reputable rebuilder and he kind of gave me a range of mean time between failures of 50,000 miles if just refurbished, to 175,000 miles if the barrels and plungers are replaced. I see that warranties on rebuilts such as BD Diesel or Industrial Injection are only one year / 24,000 miles or the like. There's a three-year, unlimited mileage warranty on the cheapest one out there, from "Diesel Select" through RockAuto, but I can't find out much about that company.

Anyway, in researching this, I found a possibly interesting alternative from Diesel Auto Power. I'll try to provide a link below. They describe it as "BRAND NEW P7100 pump 0402736865 is a 12mm pump that is a cross between a 215 and 160 pump (b&p like 215 and cam like 160). It should be a 190 or 210hp pump in stock form and would support 550-650hp if set up on kill."

Would this "b&p like 215" make it less likely to develop the sticking problem? I have heard that the problem mainly affected 94 and 95 model years, so if this is a different barrel and plunger design than those years, it seems like it could be a more lasting solution. What do y'all think?

https://dieselautopower.com/brand-new-12mm-p7100-fuel-injection-pump-0402736865/

 

[Missouri Mule]

I run away from that pump! Google p7100 pumps (if you want a 215 hp put that in sentence too).
My pump was ticking many years ago and I put some lubricant/cleaner in the tank and the tick went away. By the way what are the symptoms?
Also if you can get it to a Bosch shop they should(?) be able to turn into a 215 pump. There are many rebuilds and re-mans by well know companies on the web.
My truck has 370,000 on it. Many years ago it was leaking fuel and I was having a hard time starting it. Took it to Dodge they put copper washers on it. They sent it to Cummins they put a new pump on it. Still had starting problems, they sent it to a shop that just worked on pumps/injectors... they put a new return on it (this was at the end of 96 or early 97). In 2000 it started to have the same problem. I put a better return hose on. It's still on!

 

[BigPapa]

I definitely wouldn't say sticking plungers is a known/standard problem on '94-'95 pumps. My pump has over 500K miles on it and has never had an issue. I put 181 DV's and a fuel plate in it st @ 200K miles.

That said, I'd send your pump to a Bosch shop, especially if you want it back stock, for a rebuild. If you want any mods at all most Bosch shops will usually only rebuild it to stock. When I get ready for pump work, I'm sending mine to Seth Ferrell who owns Ferrell Diesel Service. He worked for a Bosch shop for years and finally opened his own shop. He's in KC, MO. I'm not certain if he's an authorized Bosch shop but I can tell you he has all the latest test equipment, was Bosch trained, and has several years at an authorized Bosch shop. He is The Man for modified P-pumps.

816-205-0757

https://www.facebook.com/farrelldieselservice/

I would stay away from the link you posted.

 

[GAmes]

Most of the pumps I've read about that developed warped barrels were of the early 160 variety, and the troubleshooting is easy. When the engine starts to act up dump some cold water on the IP. If the engine smooths out it is IP repair time.

Those mean time between failure numbers are impossible to believe. I'm still running the original IP on my engine. Other than an oil leak long ago it has never given me any trouble.

I'm with Scott. Take yours to a bona fide Bosch shop.

 

[GAmes]

I went through the archives and found this.

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/1319-No-Start?highlight=injection+pump

Later in life, on another forum he posted again (#5)

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/94-98-powertrain/1053546-new-user-fuel-problems.html

 

[Man_of_Constant_Sorrow]

Thanks folks, I am well beyond the diagnosis stage, within a couple bolts of removal now. BTW, thanks GAmes, for your tips on pump removal elsewhere on this forum.
My engine data plate indicates a build date in October of 1994, so I don't know if that counts as an "early" 160 hp pump, but it does seem to have the problem. I guess it would be helpful to know what they changed in the manufacturing process to fix this. I don't want to re-use the weaker design or components if I can help it, but I don't know what they are. That's what caught my eye about the pump I linked to above, it sounds like it explicitly uses different (and one hopes, better) components. And that pump is from the same supplier that illflem used in the other forum link GAmes provided ... so what do you guys think of it, and Mo Mule, why would you run from it?

 

[Timd32]

Why would a brand "new" pump require a core charge?

I buy direct from a large Cummins dealer and new is new, no core needed. Rebuilt requires a core, or you pay the extra to keep your part.

For that reason I personally would not purchase it.

You mention it's "just a stock work truck", so why not stick with a Bosch shop or a good Bosch guy like Ferrell. You dont need a custom built pump from the sounds of it. I have 205k on my stock 96, I need to start looking for fuel options due to being a northeast truck there are general issues with my linkages, rust and corrosion, I'm doing it in stages as it runs great, slowly fixing the main issues bit by bit. But it's time is coming and I will be going with a stock pump most likely.

Any decent Bosch shop is going to do right by you and not cheap out using the known bad parts over. You don't buy an authorized sign, they should be the real deal. Of corse there are exceptions to that if you go to a shop that only does a certain make and model and you talk them into doing your pump. Explain your concearns and If they don't understand you and brush you off you need to find a different shop for sure.

 

[GAmes]

I assume that by now Bosch has identified what the problem was and rectified it. Perhaps you could ask the rebuilder. Having yours repaired more than likely would cost less than buying a pump online. At least you would know what you have. Buying one doesn't give you that.

 

[BigPapa]

Why would a brand "new" pump require a core charge?

I buy direct from a large Cummins dealer and new is new, no core needed.

Not true. If a Cummins part has an "NX" suffix it is a new part and it has a core charge. This is how they build their core inventory. Where do you think the cores to rebuild come from if they never require a core return on new parts?

Now, that said, I don't think Bosch is still making NEW P7100 pumps. There may be some NEW Chinese copies, again, nothing I'd want to run.

 

[Timd32]

It was a real question not trying to be sarcastic. Good to know for sure.

My thinking is/was the personal owner fixing their truck is not doing the volume to support the rebuild market, its the commercial market and fleet shops that the providing the bulk of the cores out there.

My turbo and starter are "new" oem parts from Cummins and had no cores, not expecting a new pump for my case, a "new oem would be way out of my league budget wise.

I would trust a rebuild "anypart" from my supplier, if they say run it, but I work directly with their Generator tech's for many years and trust them to provide decent parts or steer me away from a bad deal. These are folks that I have spent hundreds if not thousands of hours with over my career.

Price out a "new" auto trans heat exchanger, if a dealer is willing to sell that part to you, it's time to find new friends. They steered me clear of that from Cummins and I found one new from a good shop at a .1 the cost of the oem part. They always let me know when I'm off base with a request and they can't provide it at a reasonable price for both parties.

 

[Man_of_Constant_Sorrow]

Price out a "new" auto trans heat exchanger, if a dealer is willing to sell that part to you, it's time to find new friends. They steered me clear of that from Cummins and I found one new from a good shop at a .1 the cost of the oem part.

That must be the rusty thing on the left side of the engine that looks like a starter, right? I might be needing your source for that too.

 

[Timd32]

http://www.americancoolingsolutions...ram-cummins-replaces-3926670-4762090-4746216/

Don't want to hijack your thread but you are the OP I think, so here is what I did.

You can search some threads for that part as well, some folks just bypass it, I don't need it for my use, but it was not that hard. The whole side of the engine was there so I said why not.

My biggest issue was the fittings did not thread that nicely into the new part. I called them and they got right back to me, pulled the drawing sent me a drawing showing the threads of both oem, and theirs, they matched, but could not find new fittings they only had the thread side, I went all over bought a bunch of stuff, wound up liquid dope and tape on the old and gave it a shot, they leaked but not from the threads from the line, which one was a new one. Couple cranks after it was running, don't forget have to be in "N" to check for leaks and I was servicing the trans already. 3k mile and no leaks yet, from there anyway.

 

[Man_of_Constant_Sorrow]

Well thanks for that, mine looks like your old one, and I expect I'll need to do something about it in the near future, once I get this rig operating.

So back on topic, I'm not really finding any engineering type explanations online of what the problem was and how they fixed it. But it is suggestive to my mind that the problems were most common with the 94 & 95 pumps, and if GAmes is right, the 160hp versions. In '96, they boosted the hp to 180. My understanding is that the differences in hp were obtained by different barrels and plungers. I would think that either a difference in design, or a difference in materials, (or both) would explain the improved reliability. There's definitely a difference in design of the b&p for 175/180/215 pumps. I don't know, apart from maybe not being able to do a core exchange of "like-for-like", would there be any downside to installing one of these higher hp pumps? For instance, do they fit without additional mods being necessary? I'm not interested in building a race truck or anything, and I like my fuel economy. But I had been thinking about a TST #6 plate, which would get me to 230, so maybe skip that and get a 215 pump?

 

[BigPapa]

I know this is on another forum but it's the best explanation of what the differences between the P-pumps are and how they work, AND, it's straight from Seth Ferrell (CTDYoungGun).

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186360&highlight=pump

 

[Timd32]

If that thread does not convince you to steer clear of the "new" knock off pumps, stick with what you have, rebuild what you have. We have alot more value in our old pumps with issues then you think. Getting your properly rebuilt pump set up correctly is much more reliable.

I can also appreciate passing my core on to a shop like his for a proper rebuild to someone else if it came to that. I still would not pass on my pump on to that OP link, while paying $1500 for a knock off. They are making a killing off that deal, and seems like a bad deal for folks sitting on a P-pump core.

My choice is going to be rebuild my 96 pump to stock (found links for that to be around $850 +any major parts found bad) or ask about his Level 3 kit rebuild 4k rpm if that would work well with my new HX35, if not just stay stock, then get a matched set of injectors for the pump package selected, maybe he can set up the whole package up, this way I know the stuff was properly tested and set up.

I'm going to buy the other stuff from Cummins for the linkages and the sort, mine are too far gone. I already have a new oem replacement throttle cable waiting to go in as well doing that when I decide to pull the trigger.

 

[GAmes]

Seth isn't the only good source for stock or performance rebuilds. In TX we have http://theaustinfuelinjection.com/

 

[GAmes]

......... apart from maybe not being able to do a core exchange of "like-for-like", would there be any downside to installing one of these higher hp pumps? For instance, do they fit without additional mods being necessary?

No. With matching injectors you would be upping the HP. It is all bolt on, the pumps are physically the same. Rock Auto normally carries new 180 HP Bosch injectors at a very good price. Every now and then they have 215s too, I have a set on the shelf for when the ones I have get over 400k miles and start getting weak.

 

[Bob4x4]

If that thread does not convince you to steer clear of the "new" knock off pumps, stick with what you have, rebuild what you have. We have alot more value in our old pumps with issues then you think. Getting your properly rebuilt pump set up correctly is much more reliable.

I can also appreciate passing my core on to a shop like his for a proper rebuild to someone else if it came to that. I still would not pass on my pump on to that OP link, while paying $1500 for a knock off. They are making a killing off that deal, and seems like a bad deal for folks sitting on a P-pump core.

My choice is going to be rebuild my 96 pump to stock (found links for that to be around $850 +any major parts found bad) or ask about his Level 3 kit rebuild 4k rpm if that would work well with my new HX35, if not just stay stock, then get a matched set of injectors for the pump package selected, maybe he can set up the whole package up, this way I know the stuff was properly tested and set up.

I'm going to buy the other stuff from Cummins for the linkages and the sort, mine are too far gone. I already have a new oem replacement throttle cable waiting to go in as well doing that when I decide to pull the trigger.

Be aware the replacement linkage available from Cummins will come with a bag of extra parts that you will not be able to use and some parts you need will not be included.

 

[Timd32]

Thanks for the info for sure, I try not to throw parts at stuff just because, but I don't have any threads showing its all crusted up. With the way my fall is looking this is going to be a winter project for sure. Will just keep the stock pump rebuild and 180 injectors. Its been a fun project for sure getting stuff worked out.

 

[Bob4x4]

If you buy injectors just go with the 215's,same price...........