Upgrade to newer SCR/DEF emissions for a Gen 3 LNT (non-DEF) engine?

[Jim W]

Mike you talk about fuel dilution of the engine oil due to the Emission systems on the 2007.5 to 2012 Cummins engines in Dodge/Ram trucks! Have you ever done a OA sample on your engine oil and see what the actual fuel dilution is? If you have and have mention the % of dilution is, I am sorry in missing this information!

I know my OA were around 1% for 3 gallons of oil in 7,500 miles in 08 and early 09 on my truck. Cummins I believe allows up to 5% fuel dilution for 3 gallons of oil in 7,500 mile oil change!

Now my MPG's between Nov, 2007 to Nov 2008 was 11.7 for 13,000 miles, truck had 29 miles on it when I purchased it. For Nov 2008 to July of 09 average was a 12.6 for 8,571 miles. This was for day to day driving and towing my 5th wheel trailer, I used my truck as my main vehicle at the time going to and from work driving in the winter and summer months until I retired in 2009.

Even today my MPG average is still around 13.8 for all of my driving conditions. Remember this is an 8,000 LBS truck and when towing I am almost 20,000 LBS with an over all height is 13'.6" tall.

 

[EDankievitch]

My 20012 would load the lube up with so much fuel. I’m not sure what the % was but after 1700 miles it would over flow a 5 gallon drain pan by almost 2 quarts. My average fuel MPG was around 15-17. That was driving roughly 650-750 miles a week and towing about 25% of the time. Flash forward to my 2013 truck with the SRC DEF system and my fuel MPG average is now 17-19 for the same driving and towing. I went from having to change the lube oil every 1700 miles as requested for by the truck’s computer to now Changing every 10,000 miles not that it needs to be changed but because I just don’t feel right running it any further.
S if there was a way to have updated my 12, the truck I special ordered and waited almost 4 months for I would have. I really liked that truck. Standard cab and 6 speed manual transmission. I tolerate the slush box the 13 has. I really don’t need the back seat of the crew cab. But when the dealer said they would make my headache go away all I had to do was pick one from the lot... who was I to complain.
The SRC emissions control system is the only way to go for the long term. The old system works but it really made the engine run like sh&t.
keep us posted how you make out if you are in fact able to update your truck.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Mike you talk about fuel dilution of the engine oil due to the Emission systems on the 2007.5 to 2012 Cummins engines in Dodge/Ram trucks! Have you ever done a OA sample on your engine oil and see what the actual fuel dilution is? If you have and have mention the % of dilution is, I am sorry in missing this information!

I know my OA were around 1% for 3 gallons of oil in 7,500 miles in 08 and early 09 on my truck. Cummins I believe allows up to 5% fuel dilution for 3 gallons of oil in 7,500 mile oil change!

Now my MPG's between Nov, 2007 to Nov 2008 was 11.7 for 13,000 miles, truck had 29 miles on it when I purchased it. For Nov 2008 to July of 09 average was a 12.6 for 8,571 miles. This was for day to day driving and towing my 5th wheel trailer, I used my truck as my main vehicle at the time going to and from work driving in the winter and summer months until I retired in 2009.

Even today my MPG average is still around 13.8 for all of my driving conditions. Remember this is an 8,000 LBS truck and when towing I am almost 20,000 LBS with an over all height is 13'.6" tall.

Jim,
I noted the rise in oil level above the safe mark on a trip 1200 miles from home back in 2018.. I did have an oil sample tested, and much to my surprise it was still considered acceptable as far a fuel dilution goes (found it: 1.8%, but with only 3200 miles on the oil, so it would be out before 7500 miles, and that is with almost exclusive highway towing miles)... but I really don't want to be concerned about DRAINING oil on a long trip because it creeps above the safe mark... something is just really wrong with that. As to your truck, if I get the parameters correct, that Smarty ME23 tune, and 5" MRBP tells my you might have taken corrective action on yours, and I certainly understand that!

It is very understandable that many went the way of correcting this situation with the products available and at economically viable price points. It would be great to find a retrofit option to be both better, and have not issues with inspections and legality. If there are retrofit systems for a Cummins B series engine school bus, and its not too massive to fit, I don't see why it can not be adapted to work on this engine... I didn't get the chance to call today, will try tomorrow if possible.

Now I must admit, the 2005 Chevy D-max with a rare 6 speed manual, I'd still have that truck if not for a reckless driver that totaled it.. but that truck was getting in about 25MPG alone, and over 15MPG with a trailer, at full highway speeds.. This one, well, about 15-16MPG no trailer, and 10-11MPG with trailer. I get it will be a bit less, due to about 1000lbs more (most of that the engine) over the Chevy, but I'm sure this thing can do better without dumping copious quantities of fuel in the exhaust to keep the DPF and LNT working. There are many reasons they went away from the LNT system, it was never a good system, merely a band-aid to have something continue in production. At least I knew enough to stay far, far away from the 2009 Ford 6.4L Diesel, that was a far worse option. I got rid of a 2007 GMC D-Max lemon to get the truck I have, and I wanted a manual back, which ruled out GM in 2007.

And the really big hit, knowing this system will absolutely clog up and cause big problems, even the document I had to sign when buying it said so, with frequent short drives, long idle times, and cold weather, etc... I have a very limited use of the thing, and as such it becomes a limited use vehicle, meaning I have to have an additional vehicle for day to day use, and the cost of that in addition to everything else, it's ridiculous actually. I'm getting heat from my wife about the cost, when it is so infrequently used, we've not done many big RV road trips in the last couple of years.. and that is pretty much it's primary use.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Ok, so I called the guy who I was referred to in CA and had a good discussion. It is possible, but it is cost prohibitive, certainly to pay someone to do it, and likely also if you try to DIY such a project. As others have noted, you could do it with a new ECU, new wiring harness, new basically all electrical in the vehicle connected to the CAN bus.. and even a new turbo, and of course all the exhaust components, DEF tank, etc.

So I had a thought, it would be literally cheaper to get a beat-up pre-2006 truck, and build it with all the 2009 stuff, to 2006 emissions standards, which would have only a Diesel CAT/EGR, no DPF or LNT etc. Literally the garbage the EPA has mandated makes it more likely people will keep the older more polluting trucks on the road longer, since the newer ones are crazy expensive, and there is no economically viable way to upgrade to something that works better for the 2007.5 to 2012 trucks that had the horrible LNT system that sucks fuel, and dumps some of it into your oil. So that is basically where this goes..

I still think it would be possible to build and market an SCR/DEF upgrade system for these trucks that would be affordable, but no option currently exists, no wonder so many go the way of the delete.

 

[Tinman]

As mentioned, you are by far better off going with an emissions intact tune/tuner (if you can find it). The 09 emissions systems basically used massive amounts of EGR to deal with NOx and the DPF for soot. (Yes, there is a DOC in there (IIRC) but not an issue here as it is passive.) If you "tuned" out the EGR by just shutting off the valve so no exhaust gets into the intake, most of the problems go away. The DPF still works like normal except with no EGR the soot production goes way down requiring less regenerations and the subsequent problems (fuel dilation). If you have any issues with emissions testing, have an EFILive CSP switch (or the like) and switch it back to stock at any time. All the hardware in place. Basically runs like a 5.9CR with a DPF and some extra "stuff" hanging off the engine.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

As mentioned, you are by far better off going with an emissions intact tune/tuner (if you can find it). The 09 emissions systems basically used massive amounts of EGR to deal with NOx and the DPF for soot. (Yes, there is a DOC in there (IIRC) but not an issue here as it is passive.) If you "tuned" out the EGR by just shutting off the valve so no exhaust gets into the intake, most of the problems go away. The DPF still works like normal except with no EGR the soot production goes way down requiring less regenerations and the subsequent problems (fuel dilation). If you have any issues with emissions testing, have an EFILive CSP switch (or the like) and switch it back to stock at any time. All the hardware in place. Basically runs like a 5.9CR with a DPF and some extra "stuff" hanging off the engine.

Good point, that can be done also by an "unplug" of the EGR, and live with the light. It is basically illegal, just like a delete, but totally get that it solves the issues of the massive EGR that creates all kinds of engine problems.
I've done some looking at EFI Live, but it's hard to be sure it is still capable of doing as you suggest, they had a blog post saying something to the effect that options in the US market were going to restrict from any changes that affect emissions, of course that could have been to make the EPA happy, but it is a big price to buy that package, then find it can't do what I'd need to do in this case. It also gets pretty technical if you want to do your own tuning.

I also looked at a few advertisements for 2013 or newer used trucks, and looked at the value of current truck.. Yep, my gut guess was about right, that switch is an easy $20K, or more. Of course there might be a glut of deals out there as the economy is suffering... but that also means I might need to be more concerned on my budget as well.

 

[Scott6]

Deleting is still very very easy to do on these 07.5-12 trucks, and overall the best option. Not sure why anyone would spend more money to put on a new emissions system. not to mention it would still fair in states like CA to do smog checking since its modified. Not sure why you think its harder or going away? internet hype.

a full delete can be done for under $400 if you know what you're doing. Unplugged EGR has merits too, but the CEL drove me nuts.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Deleting is still very very easy to do on these 07.5-12 trucks, and overall the best option. Not sure why anyone would spend more money to put on a new emissions system. not to mention it would still fair in states like CA to do smog checking since its modified. Not sure why you think its harder or going away? internet hype.

a full delete can be done for under $400 if you know what you're doing. Unplugged EGR has merits too, but the CEL drove me nuts.

I can neither confirm nor deny that I have do have stainless weld wire for my MIG, and ability to make some exhaust modifications should they be required... Given the findings in my quest, they might be required!

 

[User113]

If California keeps going in the direction it's headed, such upgrades may soon be required for all diesel vehicles, not just the big ones. It is not hard to imagine that soon either all older vehicles will have to leave California or be re-powered with newer engines. When that happens, the aftermarket might get motivated to facilitate the mandated re-powering. And if other states decide to follow suit, all of our older vehicles are doomed.

https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onrdiesel/documents/fsregsum.pdf

 

[crispyboy]

Not sure how you do a deleted for less than $400. I used efi live, bought a big muffler and a piece of exhaust pipe and did the delete myself. I think I have about $800 in my delete. The catalyst, down pipe, stock muffler and tail pipe all stayed at in place. I did this for reliability because of killing the second turbo. I run the truck on a stock setting and it runs really good. Only get a little smoke if you mat the accelerator pedal.

 

[Scott6]

Not sure how you do a deleted for less than $400. I used efi live, bought a big muffler and a piece of exhaust pipe and did the delete myself. I think I have about $800 in my delete. The catalyst, down pipe, stock muffler and tail pipe all stayed at in place. I did this for reliability because of killing the second turbo. I run the truck on a stock setting and it runs really good. Only get a little smoke if you mat the accelerator pedal.

$80-100 delete pipe to swap the dpf and nox cans out and a used $250-300 Smarty Jr ME. You could even toss in a egr delete kit for $20 if you feel you really need to remove the egr parts (vs disable with tuner and unplugging). That’s all you actually “need” and if your not looking for more power just deleted stock there’s little to no reason to shell out for an efi live.

That being said, efi live seems to be nicer tunes if your adding power. However I can’t tell a difference between my truck with the smarty and my buddies 09 with a efi live 60hp tune, they both run great, but I get better milage. (Driving style likely) Also zero smoke, you really should be seeing any smoke on a zero-60hp tunes unless they torque management is really low.

 

[crispyboy]

I didn't know about the Smarty Jr. ME. Can you get any support for this anymore?
EFI live seemed to be recommended a lot so I went with the popular vote almost 2 years ago. I really like how the truck runs now and it is more enjoyable to drive (engine starts quicker and all around a bit peppier on the acceleration). I don't run anything higher than stock delete setting to be a little nicer to the driveline and head gasket. I don't need any headaches. As I have often heard others state " the truck should have run this good from the factory".

 

[Scott6]

I didn't know about the Smarty Jr. ME. Can you get any support for this anymore?
EFI live seemed to be recommended a lot so I went with the popular vote almost 2 years ago. I really like how the truck runs now and it is more enjoyable to drive (engine starts quicker and all around a bit peppier on the acceleration). I don't run anything higher than stock delete setting to be a little nicer to the driveline and head gasket. I don't need any headaches. As I have often heard others state " the truck should have run this]

That looks great, I’m running the stock cat and muffler too. I might have to try a muffler in between the cat and stock muffler sometime.

As for the smarty, no support, not that it’s really needed. But really you have the ideal setup with efi live for sure. I’m just saying if someone is in a pinch it doesn’t have be super expensive if you know what your doing.

 

[Jim W]

Crispyboy,
Why do you need TEC support on a Smarty? I am using a Smarty S67 that was purchased in 09 and the last up date was done Nov 10, adding 23ME. I use SW3 everything is set to default except TM which is set to 2. I have run this way since than never changing the program. Truck runs great and responds as needed, no black smoke or haze when idling or driving my truck. I have close to 135K on the OD on my truck. I am also pulling a 34RL Cedar Creek with this truck.

 

[Scott6]

Crispyboy,
Why do you need TEC support on a Smarty? I am using a Smarty S67 that was purchased in 09 and the last update was done Nov 10, adding 23ME. I use SW3 everything is set to default except TM which is set to 2. I have run this way since then never changing the program. Truck runs great and responds as needed, no black smoke or haze when idling or driving my truck. I have close to 135K on the OD on my truck. I am also pulling a 34RL Cedar Creek with this truck.

He doesn't, he has a Efi Live

 

[Jim W]

He doesn't, he has a Efi Live

I understand that but he is asking about the Smarty so, I wanted to know why is he asking for TEC support!

 

[MichaelOverfield]

From what I can tell, the "Race ME" product appears to be a copy of the Smarty ME. It's still available. Looks exactly like the Smarty products, except it is for "race use only" and shipped from overseas... likely to be out of reach of the US EPA. For those looking to do such, I recommend keeping, or adding a DOC (that is a Diesel Cat). It helps keep the emissions down, basically it makes it a 1999-2007 type in the exhaust pipe. These are reasonable in price and can be had in the 4" and 5" versions.

 

[Scott6]

yup RaceMe is the overseas version, although best I can tell the tunes are still older form 2014 at the latest.

Theres already a CAT in the downpipe too.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

yup RaceMe is the overseas version, although best I can tell the tunes are still older form 2014 at the latest.

Theres already a CAT in the downpipe too.

True, the stock down pipe includes the OEM Cat, I had been looking at a 5" Turbo back complete system, that system replaces the downpipe (original is 4"), and if one goes that route, a 5" diesel Cat can be had from MangaFlow that appears to be a good fit.

 

[Jim W]

Michael, I have been using a 5" TBE form MBRP since 2009 on my truck. I purchased a complete kit a 5" TBE that would fit a 2006 LB Crew Cab truck to fit my 2008 Mega Cab short bed truck. This system bolted right up and I was able to use the stock hangers on the truck. The only thing I had to do was reposition the spare tire more to the RH side of the truck.